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Luckylad
Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 16
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Link Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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I used to work in the recording industry, I was mixing a song along with one of my engineers and I decided the kick drum needed to be raised a bit in the mix so as I reached for the kick track, I slowly start raising the fader. I looked at my engineer for his opinion and he nodded in approval when he thought it was loud enough. We both agreed it sounded better but there was a problem, it took me a few seconds to realize that I reached for the wrong track and had adjusted the volume on an empty track.
This experience confirmed for me that humans are easily tricked, mislead and confused. We had adjusted nothing yet we both heard a difference. This also sums up the way I feel about speaker wire and audio cable. People claim to hear a difference and I have no doubt that they do but the difference has nothing to do with the the type of gauge or cable. The difference is due to the mind's ability to account for your expectations.
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rod
Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 418 Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Luckylad, this is about as accurate of an answer you can make regarding cable quality. The previous post by Xeus is a good gauge to decide whether you need to go nuts on speaker wire. In most applications I don't think it makes a negligable difference.
_________________ Rod
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Tom.W
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6637
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Electrons pretty much sound the same...
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Which is why I've been advocating household electical wire since its of a purity that should be sufficient for my lame arse ears. But, we've all heard (pun intended) the relationship between money and brains.
_________________ Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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scoobydoo
Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Victoria BC
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Posts: 3068 Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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Link Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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I'm with Curt.
Once a cable is suitable for the task (so no bell wire for subwoofers, impedance for interconnects should be correct, etc).
THEY ALL SOUND THE SAME.
Hell, most amplifiers of decent quality sound identical - they need a change in basic topology such as class A to sound different a normal A-B amp. Different brand capacitors in crossovers sound the same.
It's all a bunch of snake oil sold to the foolish for large sums of money.
Speakers and the ROOM are what really makes a difference.
Mark
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StylinLP
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 41
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Is it worth getting good cables? |
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scoobydoo wrote: | ok
I've got half decent cables and speaker wires for my ht but i'm looking at stuff for my audio system upstairs.
My local audio store has always given me wicked deals on equipment the past years. I've recently picked up a pair of B&W CM1 speakers and stands as well as a creek 5450SE integrated amp.
I got a pair of Nordost Blue Heaven speakers cables (3m) half price. they have now give me a deal on some Nordost Blue Heaven RCA cables.
What do people think of these cables? I was running (cough) monster before. I do notice a difference over the monster. |
Scoobydoo, don't pay attention to the people that have no experience with high end equipment and cables.
As they say "if you never heard it you don't have an opinion"
Yes, there is a huge differance in cables in an auadio system. You will be able to clearly hear the differances between upper end and entry level cables. What you don't clearly hear is the differance between similar prices cables. Especially between Monster cables and 12gauge zip cord. actually, you can, buy you need experience doing it.
About your Blue Heavans. The only problem with them is they are lean sounding. Unfortunately, If you want high quality lower end in cables they cost alot of money. I know that sucks. My buddy and I are in the same situation. I have those Blue Heavans. None of the other cable we tried came close to the Blue Heavans when it came to the midrange on up. Huge sound stage, super detailed, fast. We tried Signal Cable, AudioQuest Copper, Cyrus Cables and DH Labs.
When I'm ready to buy new cables I will probably go with Harmonic Technology Truth cables or buy those new NEO-Tech cables from VH Labs. trying to stay away from silverclad copper cables.
_________________ *Analog fans may be blind, but digital fans are deaf*
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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Line or speaker cable can affect sound quality, but only if it significantly impacts signal transmission to the load. This can happen due to simple DCR, but more commonly it happens due to the reactive properties of the cable. Some cables, especially the very complex, multi-insulated conductor, complex geometry types have significant stored energy capabilities due to high amounts of capacitance and inductance, in quantities working both in parallel and in series, forming complex reactive circuits (which can be depicted in equivalent LCR circuits). All this complexity is usually justified for bandwidth claims that are way beyond human hearing. There is always a lot of handwaving about "harmonics" in music that need to be preserved. But do you really need the 9th harmonic of 17KHz, which might already be -50dB already, faithfully preserved by your speaker cable? A. You can't hear that frequency. B. Even if you could, you still couldn't because it's 50 dB down below reference.
The most important feature in speaker cable is DCR. The second is open loop inductance. Then maybe skin effect. But these three can all be easily balanced with a simple, twisted pair of solid core copper 14 AWG hookup wire. You can buy a 50' spool of the stuff from the hardware store for $25 and make your own using your hand drill. If you aren't going past 10' between amp and speaker, this simple cable is very, very hard to beat, at ANY price. It has excellent bandwidth, it rejects stray EM fields, has low reactance, and very low DCR. If you need longer runs, take three pairs of twisted pair, and braid them together. Now you can run a 30' run. Etc.
I've conducted tests with $5K speaker cable and $10 twisted pair solid 10AWG of similar lengths. Very, very hard to tell any difference, and if anything, the twisted pair sounded better, probably because of amp instability the high end cable was creating due to its stored energy properties.
As far as signal cable goes, capacitance is the enemy. But it's got to be one really long cable for this to start becoming an issue, given the 100 or so ohms of typical preamp output impedance and the typical 25~50K ohms of amplifier input impedance. To redundantly solve any connection requirement at the line level, just use the cable and connectors that the pros use ('cause they need their stuff to just work!):
Mogami and Belden mic and line cable
Neutrik connectors
Canare connectors
Switchcraft connectors
Done!
The main point to remember is sure, cables matter and good ones do cost a few dollars. But redundantly good cables cost less than Monster, let alone the high end bull****!
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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mr_ro_co wrote: |
Mogami and Belden mic and line cable
Neutrik connectors
Canare connectors
Switchcraft connectors
Done!
The main point to remember is sure, cables matter and good ones do cost a few dollars. But redundantly good cables cost less than Monster, let alone the high end bull****! |
You bring up something I have been thinking about which is connectors. I am curious how much of an effect the connectors have on the (so-called) differences in cables. A good comparison to make would be to take the connectors out of the equation. Everyone should agree that RCA sucks, so use good quality BNC. I wonder with this test how many people that say they can hear a difference between cables would still be able to hear a difference between mega buck cables and regular Belden 1694 or 1505.
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Scooby,
I just reread your original post. Are you sh#ting me? B&W speakers are nice speakers, but the CM1 isn't their top of the line at $900 a pair. Spending a couple of hundred dollars on cables for this set-up is not you best use of funds. I would invest in better speakers first, electronics second and room treatment third before ever thinking about cables. If you want to invest in cables, then buy some Belden 1694 along with some F-conn connectors and cable making equipment from McCarten. A quick look at prices gives you about $300 for 500 feet of wire along with connectors. This will give you enough cable to do everything in yours and probably a couple of neighbors A/V set-ups. You might also want to think about changing connections on your equipment to BNC, if you plan on keeping the equipment for awhile. My amp will probably get BNC connectors.
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Mark_A_W
Joined: 15 Mar 2006 Posts: 3068 Location: Sunny Melbourne Australia
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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mr_ro_co wrote: | Line or speaker cable can affect sound quality, but only if it significantly impacts signal transmission to the load. This can happen due to simple DCR, but more commonly it happens due to the reactive properties of the cable. Some cables, especially the very complex, multi-insulated conductor, complex geometry types have significant stored energy capabilities due to high amounts of capacitance and inductance, in quantities working both in parallel and in series, forming complex reactive circuits (which can be depicted in equivalent LCR circuits). All this complexity is usually justified for bandwidth claims that are way beyond human hearing. There is always a lot of handwaving about "harmonics" in music that need to be preserved. But do you really need the 9th harmonic of 17KHz, which might already be -50dB already, faithfully preserved by your speaker cable? A. You can't hear that frequency. B. Even if you could, you still couldn't because it's 50 dB down below reference.
The most important feature in speaker cable is DCR. The second is open loop inductance. Then maybe skin effect. But these three can all be easily balanced with a simple, twisted pair of solid core copper 14 AWG hookup wire. You can buy a 50' spool of the stuff from the hardware store for $25 and make your own using your hand drill. If you aren't going past 10' between amp and speaker, this simple cable is very, very hard to beat, at ANY price. It has excellent bandwidth, it rejects stray EM fields, has low reactance, and very low DCR. If you need longer runs, take three pairs of twisted pair, and braid them together. Now you can run a 30' run. Etc.
I've conducted tests with $5K speaker cable and $10 twisted pair solid 10AWG of similar lengths. Very, very hard to tell any difference, and if anything, the twisted pair sounded better, probably because of amp instability the high end cable was creating due to its stored energy properties.
As far as signal cable goes, capacitance is the enemy. But it's got to be one really long cable for this to start becoming an issue, given the 100 or so ohms of typical preamp output impedance and the typical 25~50K ohms of amplifier input impedance. To redundantly solve any connection requirement at the line level, just use the cable and connectors that the pros use ('cause they need their stuff to just work!):
Mogami and Belden mic and line cable
Neutrik connectors
Canare connectors
Switchcraft connectors
Done!
The main point to remember is sure, cables matter and good ones do cost a few dollars. But redundantly good cables cost less than Monster, let alone the high end bull****! |
Very, very good post Mr_ro_co.
Now, just for $hits and giggles, are any of the 'cables make a difference guys' Engineers? I'm an Engineer, and you can guess which side of the fence I sit on..
(Especially when you start opening speakers/components and you see where the fancy cables get connected too....)
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StylinLP
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 41
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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Mark, yes. There are engineers on the AudioAsylum that will tell you everything you never knew about cables. Also many cable company's (beleive it or not) have cables designed by engineers. Just because someone is an EE doesn't mean they know anything about audio cables and equipment. It's like asking a news photography to do a model shoot. Might be the same degree in college but its two entirely differant professions.
_________________ *Analog fans may be blind, but digital fans are deaf*
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Moose
Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 788 Location: Minnesota
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Link Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | Just because someone is an EE doesn't mean they know anything about audio cables and equipment |
I could understand not knowing about audio equipment but cables? They're pretty basic. Nothing mysterious about them at all. If an EE didn't understand anything about cables, I would not employ him (if I employed anyone, which I don't).
_________________ In the real world, I am alan halvorson, King of the Wild Frontier and Swell Guy.
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Welwynnick
Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Welwyn, Herts, UK
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Link Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Mark_A_W wrote: | Now, just for $hits and giggles, are any of the 'cables make a difference guys' Engineers? I'm an Engineer, and you can guess which side of the fence I sit on..
(Especially when you start opening speakers/components and you see where the fancy cables get connected too....) | Well, yeah, I'm one of the "cables do make a difference guys" AND I'm an engineer. I've done a few tests on cables over the years, and a few have made areal impression on me, such that I always keep an open mind over what might affect audio. And that includes components, connectors and even power cables.
Most folks reckon cables don't matter because parameters like RCL and linearity tests show they CAN'T make any difference. My view is that's a bit like looking at amplifier THD and using that to decide what it sounds like. If there are differences, but the specs and measurements don't explain it, then we must be looking in the wrong direction.
I have a few ideas about tests I want to do with power and speaker cables in particular, and I'll come back with more mirth-making material for all cables sceptics once I get my act together. I don't have the opportunity to perform double-blind tests any more - life is too short for that, but I'm still keen to see real improvements. I'm often tempted to join the fray with Curt in the AVS £20k forum, but that's often not a pretty place. It is better here, isn't it?
Nick
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StylinLP
Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 41
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Link Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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The forums on AudioAsylum are DBT free for good reason. Double Blind Test Free. Alot of people don't beleive in DBT at all. It doesn't work.
There is alot of scientific data on why a cable sounds the way it does on the internet. Jon Risch is one such source. Im no engineer but from some of the things they write in with white papers is not only is there skin effects but the audio signal is part of some sort of field around the cables. The signal isn't just water running through a hose. But if you watch cables under load in some sort of spectrum analyzer you see that there is a moving field around the cables. Even shielded cables. If you mess with this field via rfi, mri, static carpet, dialectrics, shielding...you effect the sound.
I might not have explained it right but thats what I got out of all that technical engineering talk. You can go to his website and read it for yourself. Alot of cable companies explain things like this too. But half of them are making things up or outright lying. Its best to trust someones judgement that isn't trying to sell you something lol.
_________________ *Analog fans may be blind, but digital fans are deaf*
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scoobydoo
Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Victoria BC
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Link Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well I got the speaker cables..cheap. Yeah the B&W CM1 aren't the top of the line but what I paid for the speakers and stands and the cables are still way less then full retail for the speakers alone.
Mr_ro_co interesting what you had to say, I think i'll try this out. My buddy has some lower end cables and I'll be bring my cables over to his place to test them on his system.
Basically the way I look at is the cables are the connection between to items much like a road. You have bumpy roads and nice new smooth roads. Obviously the nice new smooth roads are easier on your vehicle and more efficient to drive on.
Plus I did get a good deal on cables and they look pretty cool. You also have to add the coolness factor in there too.
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oliverg
Joined: 15 May 2007 Posts: 800 Location: Melbourne, Australia
TV/Projector: Sony G90 X2 - Vidikron Vision 1
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Link Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Frankly, anyone who says that a double blind test doesn't work is scared of something.
Has anyone heard of the James Randi? He's a skeptic that has offered a million dollars to people who claim to have paranormal abilities. He's even gone so far as to challenge audio people - to measure good quality mid priced cables vs the top end products.
There's a million US dollars to anyone that can pass the (mutually agreed upon) tests.
They are double blind - but no-one (since its inception over 20 years ago) has won the seemingly easy money.
I've mentioned this before, I've actually conducted some double blind tests with a bunch of friends using really low end cables and some supposed "high end" cables (+ interconnects). The equipment was pretty good - Martin Logan Prodigys and some class A tube amps. SACD (and LP) soruces.
Nobody (even my gold eared friend who owned the cables) could distinguish between the various cables and even the sources. We even tried playing 320K MP3s vs CDs and no-one could tell between them with any accuracy. Even given the fact that the choices were binary didn't help the audiophile's cause
Good quality, well made cables are all you need. Make sure interconnects have the correct impedence.
I would challenge anyone to acutally do some testing with some friends - if you are honest with yourself, you will soon conclude the same.
I find it hilarious that these supposed "cable engineers" can come up with 93129389213 excuses as to why double blind testing doesn't work or why their cables haven't been "broken in yet" ... the funniest thing I've seen in a long time was "one way cables" that sound better one way but you would ruin them if you hooked them up the wrong way.
Or the special device that "shocks" the cables so they sound better.
Or European KT88s sounding better than Chinese ones. The valve tester I have here can't differentiate between them and if these guys can really hear the difference, they should contact the Amazing randi for that million dollar prize. Furthermore, alot of audiofools don't realise, the equipment the Chinese are using to make the valves is the very same equipment bought from the European valve manufactureers back in the late 70s for pittance...
Excuse me while I slap my forehead...
I have some really good audio gear and I love listening to music as much as the next guy. I am definately an audio enthusiast but there are limits. The more technically inept, the more they can be sucked in by certain people that have no morals. I mean, come on guys - the people that sold those silly stones that sit on your amp and make them sound better have made MILLIONS... that is really really sad!
For all of those that want a good laugh - check this site out:
http://www.af4k.com/audio_bs.htm
_________________ ( R ) G ( G ) 9 ( B ) 0 ( R ) G ( G ) 9 ( B ) 0
( R ) G ( G ) 9 ( B ) 0 ( R ) G ( G ) 9 ( B ) 0
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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StylinLP wrote: | The forums on AudioAsylum are DBT free for good reason. Double Blind Test Free. Alot of people don't beleive in DBT at all. It doesn't work.
There is alot of scientific data on why a cable sounds the way it does on the internet. Jon Risch is one such source. Im no engineer but from some of the things they write in with white papers is not only is there skin effects but the audio signal is part of some sort of field around the cables. The signal isn't just water running through a hose. But if you watch cables under load in some sort of spectrum analyzer you see that there is a moving field around the cables. Even shielded cables. If you mess with this field via rfi, mri, static carpet, dialectrics, shielding...you effect the sound.
I might not have explained it right but thats what I got out of all that technical engineering talk. You can go to his website and read it for yourself. Alot of cable companies explain things like this too. But half of them are making things up or outright lying. Its best to trust someones judgement that isn't trying to sell you something lol. |
Any conductor with an electric current flowing through it has an EM field around it. Voltage and EM fields are inseparable. The audio signal is a complex current flowing through a conductor. This complex current sets up a complex field around the conductor. This is basic stuff, and it is extremely well understood. There is nothing new here. VP, dielectric constant, all these things affect bandwidth and signal transmission. But if they are only negatively affecting the 9th harmonic of 17 KHz and up, then you most certainly can't "hear" that.
If the sound of the cable changes, it's due to one or more parameters significantly changing in the transmission line in the audio passband. If you take your speaker wire and wrap it few dozen times around something like a hammer, you will significantly change the properties of that transmission line (the connecting cable) within the frequency range audible to humans and you will likely be able to hear it. But this is a gross disturbance of the signal flowing through the cable.
External fields can influence the performance of speaker wire. This is on reason why simple twisted pair makes such excellent speaker wire. As I already stated, it has excellent rejection of adjacent fields. How do you think they push gig data rates over CAT6 cable, when all it's got inside are 4 pairs of twisted copper right next to each other?
I'll state my point again. Redundantly good cables can be easily obtained for a very reasonable price. Copper and plastic and manufacturing do cost something. "High end" cables do not typically improve on the performance of germane pro-grade cables. A lot of "high end" cables actually screw up the signal transmission, so yes, you will hear a difference because they are actually degrading the transmission! But hey, if you want to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars for what amounts to a tone control for your speakers, knock yourself out!
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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Welwynnick
Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Welwyn, Herts, UK
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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mr_ro_co wrote: | Any conductor with an electric current flowing through it has an EM field around it. Voltage and EM fields are inseparable. The audio signal is a complex current flowing through a conductor. This complex current sets up a complex field around the conductor. This is basic stuff, and it is extremely well understood. | Not exactly. You can have electric and magnetic fields on their own.
A conductor with an electric current will have a magnetic field around it.
An insulator with a voltage across it will have an electric field.
A conductor pair with both current and voltage will have an EM field.
If the current and voltage vary (quickly) it will produce EM waves.
These fields and waves interact with dielectrics and other equipment, which is partly why cables have more attributes than just resistance.
regards, Nick
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mr_ro_co
Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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Welwynnick wrote: | mr_ro_co wrote: | Any conductor with an electric current flowing through it has an EM field around it. Voltage and EM fields are inseparable. The audio signal is a complex current flowing through a conductor. This complex current sets up a complex field around the conductor. This is basic stuff, and it is extremely well understood. | Not exactly. You can have electric and magnetic fields on their own.
A conductor with an electric current will have a magnetic field around it.
An insulator with a voltage across it will have an electric field.
A conductor pair with both current and voltage will have an EM field.
If the current and voltage vary (quickly) it will produce EM waves.
These fields and waves interact with dielectrics and other equipment, which is partly why cables have more attributes than just resistance.
regards, Nick |
Absolutely. I was trying to stress you cannot have a current flowing through a conductor and not have an EM field associated with it. But this EM field is not some mysterious phenomena that isn't understood and only addressed by high-end audio cable gurus. That's the snake oil that audiophiles ignorantly buy into.
Steve
_________________ Not only is there no god, try finding a plumber on Sunday!
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