CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

Luckylad · Joined: 13 Sep 2007 Posts: 16

I used to work in the recording industry, I was mixing a song along with one of my engineers and I decided the kick drum needed to be raised a bit in the mix so as I reached for the kick track, I slowly start raising the fader. I looked at my engineer for his opinion and he nodded in approval when he thought it was loud enough. We both agreed it sounded better but there was a problem, it took me a few seconds to realize that I reached for the wrong track and had adjusted the volume on an empty track.

This experience confirmed for me that humans are easily tricked, mislead and confused. We had adjusted nothing yet we both heard a difference. This also sums up the way I feel about speaker wire and audio cable. People claim to hear a difference and I have no doubt that they do but the difference has nothing to do with the the type of gauge or cable. The difference is due to the mind's ability to account for your expectations.

rod · Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:51 am Post subject:

Luckylad, this is about as accurate of an answer you can make regarding cable quality. The previous post by Xeus is a good gauge to decide whether you need to go nuts on speaker wire. In most applications I don't think it makes a negligable difference.

Tom.W · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 6637

Electrons pretty much sound the same... Very Happy

WanMan · Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273

Which is why I've been advocating household electical wire since its of a purity that should be sufficient for my lame arse ears. But, we've all heard (pun intended) the relationship between money and brains.

scoobydoo · Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Victoria BC

I had to add this:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/speaker-cables/7250-speaker-cables-turn-you-into-a-dancin-fool-302478.php

and

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/calling-bull****/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better-305549.php

Mark_A_W · Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:36 am Post subject:

I'm with Curt.

Once a cable is suitable for the task (so no bell wire for subwoofers, impedance for interconnects should be correct, etc).

THEY ALL SOUND THE SAME.

Hell, most amplifiers of decent quality sound identical - they need a change in basic topology such as class A to sound different a normal A-B amp. Different brand capacitors in crossovers sound the same.

It's all a bunch of snake oil sold to the foolish for large sums of money.

Speakers and the ROOM are what really makes a difference.

Mark

StylinLP · Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 41

mr_ro_co · Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM

Line or speaker cable can affect sound quality, but only if it significantly impacts signal transmission to the load. This can happen due to simple DCR, but more commonly it happens due to the reactive properties of the cable. Some cables, especially the very complex, multi-insulated conductor, complex geometry types have significant stored energy capabilities due to high amounts of capacitance and inductance, in quantities working both in parallel and in series, forming complex reactive circuits (which can be depicted in equivalent LCR circuits). All this complexity is usually justified for bandwidth claims that are way beyond human hearing. There is always a lot of handwaving about "harmonics" in music that need to be preserved. But do you really need the 9th harmonic of 17KHz, which might already be -50dB already, faithfully preserved by your speaker cable? A. You can't hear that frequency. B. Even if you could, you still couldn't because it's 50 dB down below reference.

The most important feature in speaker cable is DCR. The second is open loop inductance. Then maybe skin effect. But these three can all be easily balanced with a simple, twisted pair of solid core copper 14 AWG hookup wire. You can buy a 50' spool of the stuff from the hardware store for $25 and make your own using your hand drill. If you aren't going past 10' between amp and speaker, this simple cable is very, very hard to beat, at ANY price. It has excellent bandwidth, it rejects stray EM fields, has low reactance, and very low DCR. If you need longer runs, take three pairs of twisted pair, and braid them together. Now you can run a 30' run. Etc.

I've conducted tests with $5K speaker cable and $10 twisted pair solid 10AWG of similar lengths. Very, very hard to tell any difference, and if anything, the twisted pair sounded better, probably because of amp instability the high end cable was creating due to its stored energy properties.

As far as signal cable goes, capacitance is the enemy. But it's got to be one really long cable for this to start becoming an issue, given the 100 or so ohms of typical preamp output impedance and the typical 25~50K ohms of amplifier input impedance. To redundantly solve any connection requirement at the line level, just use the cable and connectors that the pros use ('cause they need their stuff to just work!):

Mogami and Belden mic and line cable
Neutrik connectors
Canare connectors
Switchcraft connectors

Done!

The main point to remember is sure, cables matter and good ones do cost a few dollars. But redundantly good cables cost less than Monster, let alone the high end bull****!

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

Spanky Ham · Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 5643 Location: Comedy Central

Scooby,
I just reread your original post. Are you sh#ting me? B&W speakers are nice speakers, but the CM1 isn't their top of the line at $900 a pair. Spending a couple of hundred dollars on cables for this set-up is not you best use of funds. I would invest in better speakers first, electronics second and room treatment third before ever thinking about cables. If you want to invest in cables, then buy some Belden 1694 along with some F-conn connectors and cable making equipment from McCarten. A quick look at prices gives you about $300 for 500 feet of wire along with connectors. This will give you enough cable to do everything in yours and probably a couple of neighbors A/V set-ups. You might also want to think about changing connections on your equipment to BNC, if you plan on keeping the equipment for awhile. My amp will probably get BNC connectors.

Mark_A_W · Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:54 pm Post subject:

StylinLP · Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 41

Mark, yes. There are engineers on the AudioAsylum that will tell you everything you never knew about cables. Also many cable company's (beleive it or not) have cables designed by engineers. Just because someone is an EE doesn't mean they know anything about audio cables and equipment. It's like asking a news photography to do a model shoot. Might be the same degree in college but its two entirely differant professions.

Moose · Joined: 09 Mar 2006 Posts: 788 Location: Minnesota

Welwynnick · Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Welwyn, Herts, UK

StylinLP · Joined: 20 Apr 2007 Posts: 41

The forums on AudioAsylum are DBT free for good reason. Double Blind Test Free. Alot of people don't beleive in DBT at all. It doesn't work.

There is alot of scientific data on why a cable sounds the way it does on the internet. Jon Risch is one such source. Im no engineer but from some of the things they write in with white papers is not only is there skin effects but the audio signal is part of some sort of field around the cables. The signal isn't just water running through a hose. But if you watch cables under load in some sort of spectrum analyzer you see that there is a moving field around the cables. Even shielded cables. If you mess with this field via rfi, mri, static carpet, dialectrics, shielding...you effect the sound.

I might not have explained it right but thats what I got out of all that technical engineering talk. You can go to his website and read it for yourself. Alot of cable companies explain things like this too. But half of them are making things up or outright lying. Its best to trust someones judgement that isn't trying to sell you something lol.

scoobydoo · Joined: 06 Apr 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Victoria BC

Well I got the speaker cables..cheap. Yeah the B&W CM1 aren't the top of the line but what I paid for the speakers and stands and the cables are still way less then full retail for the speakers alone.

Mr_ro_co interesting what you had to say, I think i'll try this out. My buddy has some lower end cables and I'll be bring my cables over to his place to test them on his system.

Basically the way I look at is the cables are the connection between to items much like a road. You have bumpy roads and nice new smooth roads. Obviously the nice new smooth roads are easier on your vehicle and more efficient to drive on.

Plus I did get a good deal on cables and they look pretty cool. You also have to add the coolness factor in there too. Razz

oliverg · Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject:

Frankly, anyone who says that a double blind test doesn't work is scared of something.

Has anyone heard of the James Randi? He's a skeptic that has offered a million dollars to people who claim to have paranormal abilities. He's even gone so far as to challenge audio people - to measure good quality mid priced cables vs the top end products.
There's a million US dollars to anyone that can pass the (mutually agreed upon) tests.

They are double blind - but no-one (since its inception over 20 years ago) has won the seemingly easy money.

I've mentioned this before, I've actually conducted some double blind tests with a bunch of friends using really low end cables and some supposed "high end" cables (+ interconnects). The equipment was pretty good - Martin Logan Prodigys and some class A tube amps. SACD (and LP) soruces.

Nobody (even my gold eared friend who owned the cables) could distinguish between the various cables and even the sources. We even tried playing 320K MP3s vs CDs and no-one could tell between them with any accuracy. Even given the fact that the choices were binary didn't help the audiophile's cause Wink

Good quality, well made cables are all you need. Make sure interconnects have the correct impedence.

I would challenge anyone to acutally do some testing with some friends - if you are honest with yourself, you will soon conclude the same.

I find it hilarious that these supposed "cable engineers" can come up with 93129389213 excuses as to why double blind testing doesn't work or why their cables haven't been "broken in yet" ... the funniest thing I've seen in a long time was "one way cables" that sound better one way but you would ruin them if you hooked them up the wrong way.

Or the special device that "shocks" the cables so they sound better.

Or European KT88s sounding better than Chinese ones. The valve tester I have here can't differentiate between them and if these guys can really hear the difference, they should contact the Amazing randi for that million dollar prize. Furthermore, alot of audiofools don't realise, the equipment the Chinese are using to make the valves is the very same equipment bought from the European valve manufactureers back in the late 70s for pittance...

Excuse me while I slap my forehead...

I have some really good audio gear and I love listening to music as much as the next guy. I am definately an audio enthusiast but there are limits. The more technically inept, the more they can be sucked in by certain people that have no morals. I mean, come on guys - the people that sold those silly stones that sit on your amp and make them sound better have made MILLIONS... that is really really sad!

For all of those that want a good laugh - check this site out:
http://www.af4k.com/audio_bs.htm

mr_ro_co · Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM

Welwynnick · Joined: 04 May 2006 Posts: 229 Location: Welwyn, Herts, UK

mr_ro_co · Joined: 08 May 2006 Posts: 1643 Location: Santa Fe NM