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Mounting surrounds and rears on the walls.

 
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keldor



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Waterloo Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:38 pm    Post subject: Mounting surrounds and rears on the walls. Reply with quote


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I am trying to decide what to do with my surrounds and rear speakers. I have to run the speaker wire now and I really need to finalize the decision as to where and how these four speakers will be implemented. I have Paradigm book shelf speakers. 2 Focus for the surrounds and 2 Mini Monitors for the rears. My first inclination was to put them on 36" to 48" stands.

Here's the problem. My room is not large and it would really be nicer if they were off the floor and mounted on the walls. I am concerned about the additional sound transfer into the stud walls and then up into the main floor. (This is a basement theater with all concrete walls already studded and insulated). Is there a magic solution for mounting these puppies to the wall but acoustically isolating them at the same time?

Thanks Guys!



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zaphod



Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the firmer you attach them to the wall, the more transfer. the less firmly you attach them to the wall the muddier the sound.

rock. hard place.

consider using mounting brackets for them, many many surround speakers (including my Martin Logans) use a mounting bracket.

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keldor



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Waterloo Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod wrote:
the firmer you attach them to the wall, the more transfer. the less firmly you attach them to the wall the muddier the sound.

rock. hard place.

consider using mounting brackets for them, many many surround speakers (including my Martin Logans) use a mounting bracket.


Thanks for your reply Zaphod. That was exactly what I was thinking.

Although I have just had a brain storm! I have concrete walls behind the stud walls where I am placing these speakers. All I need do is to come up with a mounting method that secures some speaker brackets to the concrete wall and passes through the stud wall without making any real (acoustic) contact with the stud wall.

Steve.

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JustGreg



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made brackets for my rears, (I have speakers for mids just nothing to drive them yet). They're a hard mount to the walls but the studs are isolated; eg, floating. A friend of mine created suspended "mounts" for his using rubber and springs and stainless bits and parts. I simply don't know enough about the science of creating 'the' optimal audio environment so I plead ignorance in the case of my HT.

If your 3D rendering is accurate in it's configuration, at this point I think you're going to have a more difficult time achieving good imaging with the current/proposed speaker placements. You may end up not rigid mounting much if you follow good placement laws.
While Googling to find mounts for you I stumbled across the paragraph (and much more) below:

Courtesy of Galen Carol Audio
"For proper imaging to take place, sound from each speaker must arrive at the listening position at precisely the same moment. This requires that the speakers be exactly the same distance away from the main seating position. We're talking about precision here. Difference of less than " will be audible in better systems to careful listeners. "

There's ALOT more where that came from at: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html

Greg

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JustGreg



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These concrete screws are the cats ass. Soooo much easier to work with than traditional concrete bits and inserts. You should be able to find them at most home improvement stores.

Greg
http://www.heavydutystore.com/Elco_Tapcon_Concrete_Screws_p_21438.html

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zaphod



Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

but your processor should have adjustment for the distance to each speaker. better processors will have seperate measurements for the left and right surrounds.

once weird thing about the Sony EP9ES was that the center could not be registered with a distance more than the fronts. you had to have the center at least as close as were the left/right.

i remember a DVD player (JVC i think) that had the delays on it's 5.1 outputs measured in milliseconds. they had some math to convert from linear to temperal measurements, but talk about precision Smile

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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustGreg wrote:
Courtesy of Galen Carol Audio
"For proper imaging to take place, sound from each speaker must arrive at the listening position at precisely the same moment. This requires that the speakers be exactly the same distance away from the main seating position. We're talking about precision here. Difference of less than " will be audible in better systems to careful listeners. "


Of course, if you're going to get that anal about speaker placement, then you'd better also make sure the chair is in exactly the correct place (also down to the quarter-inch), make sure your seating location is precisely positioned (stitching or magic marker to indicate price ass location so as locate your ass perfectly equidistant from all speakers). Most important perhaps, is that there is absolutely NO SLOUCHING OR LEANING ALLOWED - that may shift your ears one way or the other in your chair.

Hey, I'm all for being scientific where it counts. I always try to be. My speakers are, in fact quite precisely positioned. But, when somebody starts talking about careful listeners being able to hear the speakers moved closer or further away... by a quarter of an inch... I call BS. How many of us have ears, rooms, and systems that would reveal whatever subtle difference results from moving the speaker from 8' from the listening position to 8' 1/4" from the listening position?

SC
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JustGreg



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3098
Location: Kenosha, WI


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
JustGreg wrote:
Courtesy of Galen Carol Audio
"For proper imaging to take place, sound from each speaker must arrive at the listening position at precisely the same moment. This requires that the speakers be exactly the same distance away from the main seating position. We're talking about precision here. Difference of less than " will be audible in better systems to careful listeners. "


Of course, if you're going to get that anal about speaker placement, then you'd better also make sure the chair is in exactly the correct place (also down to the quarter-inch), make sure your seating location is precisely positioned (stitching or magic marker to indicate price ass location so as locate your ass perfectly equidistant from all speakers). Most important perhaps, is that there is absolutely NO SLOUCHING OR LEANING ALLOWED - that may shift your ears one way or the other in your chair.

Hey, I'm all for being scientific where it counts. I always try to be. My speakers are, in fact quite precisely positioned. But, when somebody starts talking about careful listeners being able to hear the speakers moved closer or further away... by a quarter of an inch... I call BS. How many of us have ears, rooms, and systems that would reveal whatever subtle difference results from moving the speaker from 8' from the listening position to 8' 1/4" from the listening position?

SC

Of course, if you're going to get that anal about speaker placement, then you'd better also make sure the chair is in exactly the correct place (also down to the quarter-inch), make sure your seating location is precisely positioned (stitching or magic marker to indicate price ass location so as locate your ass perfectly equidistant from all speakers). Most important perhaps, is that there is absolutely NO SLOUCHING OR LEANING ALLOWED - that may shift your ears one way or the other in your chair.
I was thinking the same thing when I read it! Laughing
I fidgit alot during movies so I'm always in a state of non compliance AND I'm half freeking deaf from years of working with high output pumps and motors.
Oh yeah...No reclining seating either I guess. Laughing
Greg

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GEBrown



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 729
Location: Denver


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustGreg wrote:
. . . .Oh yeah...No reclining seating either I guess. Laughing
Greg


And no beer drinking during movies either - that CERTAINLY induces slouching and leaning!!!

Thumbs Down

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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not to mention... how good (or bad, for that matter) could it sound after you've had a few. Wait, maybe we're on to something. Just drink a 6-pack before you go into the theater, and it'll all sound the same. Think of the money we could all save on buying expensive gear. We could just buy garage sale junk and lots of cheap swill instead!!! I could buy a LOT of cheap beer for just what I have in my receiver and speakers. Never mind separates!!!

Smile

SC
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15741
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustGreg wrote:
Courtesy of Galen Carol Audio
"For proper imaging to take place, sound from each speaker must arrive at the listening position at precisely the same moment. This requires that the speakers be exactly the same distance away from the main seating position. We're talking about precision here. Difference of less than " will be audible in better systems to careful listeners. "

I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap.

What does Galen Carol Audio think? That there's ever only *1* person sitting in the home theater watching and listening? Gimme a break, it's a home theater. And like others said, if you move a little bit, it's the same as moving a speaker a little bit.

Even with 1 person, that's what speaker delays are for: To compensate for differences in placement. I use bipolar speakers in the rears like the ones in the original post picture (mine are the Paradigm Signature ADP's). They really give a 'disperse' sound field. I spend a whole evening trying various locations at various heights and positions before settling on something similar to the original poster.

Right now I'm 5.1 but when I go 7.1 in the future my speakers will be placed almost exactly like in the original picture as my room is very similar (slightly offset with one rear off to the side more than the other).

For what it's worth, I'm very anal and in my testing I did try moving that farther rear speaker against the wall and also putting it up closer to the listening position so that it was equal to the other speaker and it make zero difference once you dialed in the speaker distance in the preamp.

Kal

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keldor



Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 32
Location: Waterloo Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JustGreg wrote:
I made brackets for my rears, (I have speakers for mids just nothing to drive them yet). They're a hard mount to the walls but the studs are isolated; eg, floating. A friend of mine created suspended "mounts" for his using rubber and springs and stainless bits and parts. I simply don't know enough about the science of creating 'the' optimal audio environment so I plead ignorance in the case of my HT.

If your 3D rendering is accurate in it's configuration, at this point I think you're going to have a more difficult time achieving good imaging with the current/proposed speaker placements. You may end up not rigid mounting much if you follow good placement laws.
While Googling to find mounts for you I stumbled across the paragraph (and much more) below:

Courtesy of Galen Carol Audio
"For proper imaging to take place, sound from each speaker must arrive at the listening position at precisely the same moment. This requires that the speakers be exactly the same distance away from the main seating position. We're talking about precision here. Difference of less than " will be audible in better systems to careful listeners. "

There's ALOT more where that came from at: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/speakerplacement.html

Greg


I thought my proposed speaker placement might draw a comment. Another way to do the room would be to extend the closet further to the back. Then mount the right surround on the closet wall. The problem with this idea is you narrow the access into the room. This is especially true if the speakers are on floor stands.

As Zaphod indicated my plan was to use the speaker distance settings to compensate for the unbalanced surround placement. Not the ideal... but workable.

My goal now is to find some off the shelf speaker brackets that are extensible enough to attach to the concrete wall and protrude through the stud wall.

Steve

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15741
Location: Ottawa, Canada

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PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

keldor wrote:
I thought my proposed speaker placement might draw a comment. Another way to do the room would be to extend the closet further to the back. Then mount the right surround on the closet wall. The problem with this idea is you narrow the access into the room. This is especially true if the speakers are on floor stands.

Don't bother. It really won't make a noticeable difference IMHO. It would be so subtle.

Kal

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zaphod



Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Posts: 2002
Location: Cloverdale


PostLink    Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and get yourself a sound level meter at radio shack to make sure that your levels are balanced out. you might have to tweek the far right surround a bit louder as it is further away. your milage will vary. trust your ears.
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paw



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1176
Location: Arvada, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GEBrown wrote:
JustGreg wrote:
. . . .Oh yeah...No reclining seating either I guess. Laughing
Greg


And no beer drinking during movies either - that CERTAINLY induces slouching and leaning!!!

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AAAA!!! The voice of experience! Wink
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perisoft



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reiterate the general principle that audiophiles are universally, and without exception, completely full of sh*t. Razz
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Fujifrontier



Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 354
Location: San Antonio, Texas


PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

second that
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was one at one time. Then I went broke. Now I play with surplus.

I third that.



BTW I still love my vinyl. Wink

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