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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:54 am Post subject: Marquee 9500 LC Ultra - What on Earth is this burn pattern? |
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I've just come into 3 Marquee 9500 LC Ultra projectors, from a lot of about 12. Most of the lot have got the strangest burn pattern on the green and blue tubes - but the red tubes are pristine, and were actually switched off on all of the ones I was able to test from the lot.
What do y'all make of this?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:17 am Post subject: |
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Interesting! Do you have any more information (or a place I can find it) on how these would have been set up, what they would have been projecting, and why the red tube was never used?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:27 am Post subject: |
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There's any number of a million types of setups possible. This was likely used in a sim where multiple projectors were set up to each project only a segment of the displayed area. What was done depends entirely on what the company was up to, what sort of whacky curved screen setup they had (they're all different so impossible to be specific - where ever you saw these from may have more details). Marquees were very flexible about this so you'd often see them used in sims.
Very common back in to the day to have people come on the forum here wondering about odd burn-in. Search the forum for lots of previous discussions or read on the main site for lots of articles and tips. Start here: http://www.curtpalme.com/TechTips.shtm
That's the best way to learn as nobody's been posting here for years really as all CRT projector discussion died 5+ years ago.
Red likely not used because these were likely used for flight sims. Very little to no red in sky/ground. It's mostly blue and green.
As as always been the case with used CRT projectors, tube condition is everything. Uneven burn makes projectors useless. Nobody wants projectors used in sims due to the oddball burn-in.
Kal
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the info, Kal. I've got three of these things (projectors), and I believe the one I posted was the one with the worst burn. There's also one with some weird diagonal burn that I've not got a picture of at the moment. I'd say the other set is about a 7 or an 8 on this chart: http://www.curtpalme.com/TubeCondition_RatingChart.shtm
I suspect that a procedure such as this: http://www.curtpalme.com/Balancing_CRT_wear.shtm may help me get some useful life out of those tubes yet.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Throw up a pic using a "regular" setup and see how bad it is. Odds are the wear will be very noticeable and you'll need to try and even it out as the guide you linked to.
A 7-8 in wear is fine under normal setup as you typically will stay within the same phosphor area (more or less). Worst case you have to move the projector a bit farther back for sub-optimal phosphor usage if you want to stay within the worn area. The problem with the tubes you have is that the wear is completely non-even. You may have 7-8 in the worn area but the rest is virgin phosphor and you can't set up the projector the same way as it was originally used. Assumption is you're not setting up a flight sim.
Keep in mind too that some projectors used in flight sims had oddball lenses (usually very short throw) and possibly other non-standard electronics.
Kal
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Sun Nov 27, 2022 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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I'm planning on doing a quick setup of one of the units later today, to determine how bad the wear looks on screen as it is right now. I am indeed not setting up a flight sim - I wish!
It looks like these units have the "new" HD10L lanses, which I am seeing can actually be used with up to a 110" screen (unofficially) without problem. My screen is about 100", so I'm going to try and get it focused on that and see how I fare. Worst case, I just keep the thing floor-mounted and use a smaller screen size until I can find a new set of lenses.
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 2:24 am Post subject: |
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I've been messing with the projector a bunch this morning. As I was trying to dial in the raster on the tube, I noticed that there seem to be some strange dark bars near the left of the tube. All 3 tubes have this, even the red. Is this burn, or something else? Before I took the lenses off, I pointed the thing at the screen and the pentagon was very visible, but I didn't notice the bars (I wasn't looking for them at that time, though.)
Also, does anyone know how to shift the actual raster left and right on one of these units? I can only seem to shift the picture within the raster, from the PIC menu, using PHASE. EDIT: Figured that out. It's Convergence -> Service -> Green Interpolated.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for pointing me in the right direction, and for the good luck wishes! I've been messing with it this evening but my eyes have grown too tired to continue at the moment. I've been staring alternatly at the screen and down the tube to try and align a pentagon in GIMP over the wear pattern on the tube. The plan after that is to drop that on top of a full screen image (since GIMP isn't full screen) and then scale it until it fills the screen properly.
One thing I've got to say is that this projector looks really damn good so far at 1080p - and I am saying that from the perspective of looking at it with only the green tube on, a giant pentagon in the middle of it, badly out of keystone, and projected onto a dirty old sheet on the wall.
I can't wait to get this thing working to its full potential (well, at least as close as I can get with these old tubes!)
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Alright - both I and my husband spent a good 4 hours together trying to line up a burn mask in various ways, and we just couldn't make it happen. And then I came to an important realization: I'm a programmer! That's my job! Not just any kind of programmer, either, but a graphics programmer!
So... I whipped up a quick program to render a pentagon on the screen, and let me do things like drag around its vertices, swap the foreground/background color, etc. I got that lined up on the screen in 5 minutes, and had my husband check it as well, and it looks to be well-aligned. Defocused the tube a bit, cranked the contrast up to about 75, and now I'm letting it burn. I'm checking at one-hour intervals, and will try and report back whenever anything significant happens!
Program can be found here, if anyone wants it. I wrote it for Linux, in C. https://pastebin.com/5nArZg9e
Edited to update:
I've just let the green tube burn for rougly 4 hours with the mask, and I am beginning to see a very faint outline of the new burn pattern around the edge of the tube face. I plan to run it for at least 8 hours tomorrow, up to 12 hours if I have the time, and check on it every 2 hours or so. The next update I provide will likely be when the process is complete for the green tube, or if something goes wrong or something otherwise notable happens.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Just a small update since it's been so long... I've been burning it in for about 28 hours so far. I would say it's about half done. I don't have pictures just yet, but I'll try and take some after this next cycle (I'm checking it in 2 hour increments, and there's about an hour and a half left of this increment.)
I made some tweaks to my little program - mainly to add support for saving the shape to a file and loading it back up later, in case I need to restart the computer. However, so far the computer running the program has been running 24/7 since I started the burn, and all is well so far. I'll probably post the complete code of the final version of the program once this is all done, in case anyone else may come across this thread and find it useful.
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 4378 Location: Phoenix
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Link Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Guys
Raster shift can be done several ways. First, go to CONV, 5, pw 0901, 1 and hit 0 to null out any green shift coming thru convergence, and see if that is centered. You can then choose to center the raster using green converge; or flare magnet adjustment, or focus yoke positioning on the tube neck.
Remember to pivot the red and blue tubes mechanically after centering by any other adjusting.
Email me if you need the Owner's Manual ehometech8022@yahoo.com
Also, if those are clear green c element lenses I would swap in the tinted lenses. I should have a few here.
Tim at E-Tech
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006 Posts: 4378 Location: Phoenix
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Link Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Guys
Kal has manuals and bulletins. I have thirty years of hands-on experience. Just saying.......
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Tim in Phoenix wrote: | Kal has manuals and bulletins. I have thirty years of hands-on experience. Just saying....... |
I don't dispute that at all. You stated you had the owner's manual and that they could email you for it. I simply pointed out that they're already available on our website to save both of you some time.
We all know you’re a Marquee expert Tim. You remind us of that over and over, as you've done once again here.
Kal
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blackjack
Joined: 20 Nov 2022 Posts: 14
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Link Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot for the info Tim. I believe that the C-element lenses on the green tube are clear. I'm not sure about the red, though. I understand the blue is always clear, though.
If you have tinted lenses, I'd love to buy a set off you, because at some point I will likely be replacing the tubes and bellows on one of these sets, so I might as well do the c-elements as well while I'm at it.
As for progress on the burn... We've been burning for 70 hours so far of total tube on time, and the shape of the pentagon is now barely visible when the set is off. I'm monitoring it hour-by-hour tonight, but I think it shouldn't take too much longer.
The picture is still nice and bright by my standards when thrown onto a wall through the lens, so while this tube is definitely starting to look more like a 6 or a 5 on the chart on CurtPalme.com, I think by my standards it will be perfectly watchable - and I'm not exactly a heavy user.
The article I looked at on CurtPalme.com for balancing tube wear states "As a final step, a G2/white balance calibration was performed to calibrate out the new (slightly subdued) tube output. It seemed to come out right where it should be."
How is that done on a Marquee? Does it require special equipment? If so, what does it need?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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