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CRT vs digital stack/blend

 
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Jeremy112




Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2645
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 11:48 pm    Post subject: CRT vs digital stack/blend Reply with quote


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*MOD EDIT: THIS SUBJECT WAS SPLIT FROM A DIFFERENT CRT BLEND AD IN THE BUY/SELL FORUM*

To put pricing for a digital blend (which could easily surpass a 10ft screen without winking an eye) in perspective to this:

2 5000 lumen laser full HD projectors can be had for less than $1500 for the pair on the used market (20,000hr + laser life at that) and the blend functionality is built in. All you need is a processor to process the image being sent to the projectors, which again isnt anywhere near that price, more like $1500 or so.

So for $3000, one can have 2 5000 lumen digital projectors with laser light sources which mean superior color & contrast over conventional digitals, & the processor, and they are a heck of a lot easier to setup, aside from the other obvious positives of digital PJs these days.

As much as I love my G90 and XG1100, I wouldn't put the effort in to do more with them than use them for strictly movies or retro CRT gaming projectors at this point.

This isn't 2005 anymore... :/ But best of luck on the sale if you can find the right guy who knows what you have Smile

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walteritaly




Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 75
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeremy112 wrote:
2 5000 lumen laser full HD projectors can be had for less than $1500 for the pair on the used market (20,000hr + laser life at that) and the blend functionality is built in. All you need is a processor to process the image being sent to the projectors, which again isnt anywhere near that price, more like $1500 or so.

So for $3000, one can have 2 5000 lumen digital projectors with laser light sources which mean superior color & contrast over conventional digitals, & the processor, and they are a heck of a lot easier to setup, aside from the other obvious positives of digital PJs these days.

As much as I love my G90 and XG1100, I wouldn't put the effort in to do more with them than use them for strictly movies or retro CRT gaming projectors at this point.
This is partly true but it is also true that there are people who like to see more natural images and prefer a deep or almost absolute black by sacrificing brightness and definition ....
there are other people who prefer to dazzle with shock lumens and visual punch with even more definition ...

True, the new digital projectors are very bright and manage to have a color depth greater than CRTs but they cannot have absolute black for the reason that they cannot do on / off with the light and they have to rely on various stratagems of software, dynamic iris and so on.

I recently saw a sony Laser 4k hdr in action and it didn't surprise me at all ...
I remember a nice brightness on a neutral screen and very saturated colors ... but in the complex I still prefer my marquee especially in the dark scenes where the 760 was a disaster, unwatchable

this is just my humble opinion,

surely most of the people today want a digital ....
it all depends on how each of us prefers to see the images on his screen ..

what is certain is that the set that Tim proposes today is really very expensive

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gjaky




Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2770
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

walteritaly wrote:

True, the new digital projectors are very bright and manage to have a color depth greater than CRTs but they cannot have absolute black for the reason that they cannot do on / off with the light and they have to rely on various stratagems of software, dynamic iris and so on.


The thing is CRT can't do perfect black either, more precisely, if does it'll most probably crush blacks too. More over, CRT is miserable with interscene contrast ratio, whenever there is a small white dot on the tube face the whole raster being lit up due to reflections in the optical system (losing dark details), this performance has been suprassed more than a decade ago with digitals.
What CRT really excels in is the motion resolution, but since vast majority of the people here don't run their CRT frame locked to source this is thrown out on the window right away.

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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17115
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
The thing is CRT can't do perfect black either, more precisely, if does it'll most probably crush blacks too.

That was my experience when I moved from my 8" LC EM focussed Zenith 1200 (Barco Cine 8 clone) to my current JVC RS56. And that was way back in 2013. More here in my RS56 writeup:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32973

Quote:
More over, CRT is miserable with interscene contrast ratio, whenever there is a small white dot on the tube face the whole raster being lit up due to reflections in the optical system (losing dark details), this performance has been suprassed more than a decade ago with digitals.

Yes, that took some getting used to when I first got the digital. I was amazed/surprised at the difference. I did have an LC projector which helps reduce those reflections but they're only lessened, they don't go away completely. (You do still get some light bounce through the optics of any digital too of course, but they're orders of magnitude lower than what you get in CRT even with the first element being LC).

I've now split this subject away from this BUY/SELL thread into a separate topic so that it can be discussed separately as it isn't really fair to the original poster.

Kal

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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 11563
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, totally 1000% agree with the "CRTs can do black but only by crushing low IREs" points. I tuned my CRT (AC Marquee 8500) for proper color temps, gamma, etc. And at the "correct" gamma, I always felt the image was way too dark, way too much loss of detail in the shadows. I could fix that by adjusting gamma or low-end contrast, but then you lose the inky blacks. In my experience ya just can't do both.

CRTs are also current-limited. So scenes with lots of white (think Ice Age or similar) end up looking anemic because the CRT just can't pump out that many photons.

Also totally agree with the inter-scene ANSI contrast comments. Especially coming from an AC projector, the improvement in contrast was huge.

I don't play video games or watch sports on my system, so I haven't noticed any issues with motion resolution.

With those points, and perfect convergence, etc, the image from my JVC RS45 blows away my CRT. Not even close.
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Dancrt




Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 46


TV/Projector: D50 + G70 + Barco 909


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Being only newish to my barco 909 colour filtered
Itís now been hanging for a year I can say

Way better than originally setup but to get there
Moome card required
Video processing required
Super attention to detail to get sharp and good colours

I donít have a stack but the green tube is driven so hard that
If I go just two more on tube gain itís goes blurry
But is required to get fantastic brightness and contrast 3m wide screen

Colour isnít as punchy as the newer projectors Iíve seen in action but
The vp50pro set too edge and fine enhancements helps a lot enhances colour slightly
But takes the crt blurry out to the point the (C) in the marvel moevies is a (C) instead of a dot
And itís easy to tell a 1080p source vs 4K downscaled to 1080p source

I want both a new jvc and my crt my crt I havnt seem as perfectly detailed shadows
Noise free and fade off as smoothly to black in a any display ever.
As someone pointed out to me a while ago if your coolant goes slightly bad that will wreck
The blacks and cloud up the picture
I canít afford a new jvc and donít feel itís needed because the vp50 pro has made such a difference
I texted a lcd projector stack two 6,000 lumans 4cmx3 nec dual lamp units and it was bright as a tv
But blacks where horrid and the heat produced from 4x250w lamps is so intense the room becomes unbearable
Within 30 mins so add aircon. Itís very noisy

My point is crt needs help to get to a great image and took me ages but now
I canít say Iím missing much except wider colour space I bought a lcos sxrd Sony
But belive it has panel degradation even after correcting for it the picture is no where near
As good as the crt but the local projector place the jvc and the top end Sonyís are
Impressive but from what I could see posterised the shadows something my crt dosnt do
And if I spend 15,000+ on a digital I would be disappointed with ?
Not having a dla myself I donít know if this is now mal or not set. Up correctly

At first I was disappointed with my barco now I swear but it and never want it to
Stop but the vp50pro was integral in it being great

Would I stack two crts together Ö. How would you keep them even remotely converged ???
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km987654




Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2814
Location: Australia

TV/Projector: Barco BG809s


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

These comparisons always seem to happen and the results are always the same in that there is little consensus. Each technology produces it's image differently and therefore the resulting image will have different critical aspects..
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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 11563
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dancrt wrote:
I donít have a stack but the green tube is driven so hard that
If I go just two more on tube gain itís goes blurry
But is required to get fantastic brightness and contrast 3m wide screen

Glad you enjoy it! But I would start looking for another green. If you drive it that hard, it won't last long ...
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Dancrt




Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 46


TV/Projector: D50 + G70 + Barco 909


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely 😁 have a spare but I seem to use it 2,000 hours so far this year 🥴
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walteritaly




Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 75
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
The thing is CRT can't do perfect black either, more precisely, if does it'll most probably crush blacks too.
yes it is true, they cannot do absolute black but it is very deep and does not turn red or blue as I have seen many digital projectors including the 760 laser do.
an example can be seen well in the scene at minutes 3:30 of chapter 1 of the movie "valerian" where there are 3 spaceships that with golden spheres navigate in space approaching the earth ..
in this scene the bright gold color in the digial pj that I saw in action becomes faded and almost unreadable clouded by a veil sometimes blue sometimes red, also the black bands above and below the screen light up red or blue depending on the move of the scene.
on my CRT this does not happen, the spheres are bright gold, the space around is black and remains black even in the performance of the scene, the black bands above and below the screen are absolutely black despite being the 16: 9 raster and the face of the 4: 3 tube both illuminated.
now I don't know how big this light escapes and propagates in the glass of the tube immediately after the phosphor, then in the c-element and finally in the lenses but it must be very little or certainly much less than that which escapes in a digital.

However it is on my CRT I have adjusted a good grayscale, first adjusting on the pj and then through the player inserting a bluray disc "ted light space" using 1080p 60 YcBcr 4: 2: 2 16/235 and gray scale from 0 to 5 ire by adjusting until the 5 ire rectangle is flashing, so I was able to come up with all the possible details that were previously drowned in black.

I have never seen two digital side by side of 5000 lumens each but I think that the residual light on 10000 lumens is really a lot to tame, I find it difficult that with all that light there is an acceptable black, surely the visual impact must be incredible and leave to mouth open!!

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garyfritz




Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 11563
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jul 11, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 10k lumens is enough to set the screen on fire in a typical HT setup! I would think anyone throwing that many photons at the screen would probably use a dark gray screen, and that would take care of most of the low-IRE problems.
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walteritaly




Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 75
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

km987654 wrote:
These comparisons always seem to happen and the results are always the same in that there is little consensus. Each technology produces it's image differently and therefore the resulting image will have different critical aspects..
That's right,
it's useless to make comparisons, everyone wants the images they prefer,
they are two different ways of seeing, it depends on what a person likes to look at.

I like science fiction movies and these are full of high contrast images between intense colors and deep black so for now I am satisfied with what my CRT gives me

Each technology has strengths and weaknesses, unfortunately there is no perfect pj,

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walteritaly




Joined: 21 Mar 2020
Posts: 75
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
I think 10k lumens is enough to set the screen on fire in
Would look nice, no problem with black afterwards...
Cool Laughing

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Tim in Phoenix




Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4339
Location: Phoenix


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: CRT vs digital stack/blend Reply with quote

Jeremy112 wrote:
*MOD EDIT: THIS SUBJECT WAS SPLIT FROM A DIFFERENT CRT BLEND AD IN THE BUY/SELL FORUM*


2 5000 lumen laser full HD projectors can be had for less than $1500 for the pair on the used market (20,000hr + laser life at that) and the blend functionality is built in. All you need is a processor to process the image being sent to the projectors, which again isnt anywhere near that price, more like $1500 or so.



I am the most enthusiastic blender in this entire crowd, using CRTs that is. Tried blending with DLPs and the black level was too high thru the middle. Haven't messed with lasers....

Blending is mostly intended for a pair of 4:3 projectors with twenty percent overlap for a 1.78 result. For dedicated 2.35 one uses about ten percent overlap.

It won't work well for at least two reasons. Two 1.78-aspect projectors would be a 3.3 aspect when overlapped. Not much help is it?

I am told that cinema machines are purpose-built for specific encrypted signals from movie distributors; the Barcos have hard drives built in; no HDMI or RGB in.

The heat and power consumption would be insane. I'm done LOL
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Jeremy112




Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2645
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I completely forgot about this topic, LOL. Sorry about that! Anyway, here's a photo I took of a simple digital PJ blend using 2 $80 NEC 4:3 desktop LCD projectors. Nothing fancy, they are about as cheap as they come these days, but the blend zone is invisible, the image isn't perfect albeit, but the projectors I was using were well past their life expectancy, and the color could only be compensated so much on them. Considering NEC never intended to have them used that way, I think they performed admirably.

I've done a couple other blends with 1080p projectors as well, and achieved the same (better actually, since those projectors were designed with edge blending in mind,) results. It took maybe 30 minutes to achieve the results seen in the photo above. That's hardware & software. It could have been better but considering I did this for a garage sale on the fly I think it turned out well. I usually don't document everything I do because I really could care less about that sort of thing, lol.

Like I said, the blend in the pics was cheap, but its a true edge blend and looked pretty acceptable for how cheap it is. I think it was around 80px of a blend zone, (sorry I don't have test images thrown up, again, don't care about documenting it, was just for fun and good eye candy to help sell some cheap PJs.

And that's where I'll leave my thoughts at. Wink

Note: Second pic is of the 2 PJs projecting the blended image.



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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17115
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool! I see two unused projectors there... time for a quad blend!

Kal

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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26230
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Jeremy. Lookin' good.
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