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Mechromancer
Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Posts: 22
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Link Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:09 am Post subject: Crystalio II 3800 or Lumagen 2124...strictly for Laserdiscs |
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I know these units are overkill to stick in a chain, purely to watch Laserdiscs. I've already had the "riot act" read to me on another forum (unsolicited and without any knowledge of my my budget, interests or intentions). But these are the only units consistently recommended as the best for laserdisc viewing.
The LD player is the Panasonic LX-900, the display is a Vizo 4K V505-H1 (yes it's a cheapy 4K, it's in my game room for casual watching if I don't wanna impose on the missus in the living room ;P ).
I also have a Radiance XE-3D which provides a noticeable (but not great) improvement to LDs.
This is my current chain:
LD >> XE (composite) >> Display
In my limited knowledge of the subject, here are my 3 options for a chain:
LD >> Crystalio >> Display
LD >> Crystalio >> Radiance XE (scaling, CMS) >> Display
LD >> 2124 >> Display (I don't think the XE needs to be involved in this chain, but please advise)
Would any of those examples provide a noticeable improvement (i'm not looking for 4K quality here) to the set up I already have?
If so, considering I can get the Crystalio for almost 1/2 the price of the Lumagen, which one would be the better bang for the buck?
Looking forward to your expert observations and suggestions.
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Hulio
Joined: 15 Apr 2006 Posts: 469 Location: Belgium
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:43 am Post subject: |
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I don't have any experience with Lumagen processors, but I know that for SD, and especially for LD enthusiasts, Crystalio II-3800 is the way to go. It has one of the best adjustable comb filters in the consumer market.
Here a quote from someone on LD forum:
"I know not many people have these and they're getting harder and harder to find. However, they are one of the best options for LD processing. The people here who drove me to the madness of video processors have moved on to the next stratosphere of technology and I am happy to watch them try to reach the Sun.
The C2 is still a valid option for LD and still one of the best if you can find one. Part of the reason why is due to the fact that you can adjust the comb filter settings. Very few processors out there allow this. Some TVs will have these adjustments in the Service Menus but that isn't as convenient as a normal menu. Lumagen and the EVAL board are the only two that come to mind.
Anyway, I've read the threads here about the settings and also experimented myself. Some of the info seems unclear as presented and I'd like to share my own personal experience and settings. You don't have to use them and maybe they aren't correct for your system. Use these as a guide and a stepping stone.
There are 4 settings. Each setting is from 0-100 steps. They are:
Luma Gain
Chroma Gain
Luma Coring
Chroma Coring
Previously, I was using settings found here in other posts. While that was helpful it did not get me the results I had hoped for. So I re-read them and also re-read the TI TVP5160 3d Comb Filter Operation Guide and experimented on my own.
Here are my conclusions:
Think of Gain as a balance between 3D and 2D combing. Depending on the setting it defines how fast the filter switches between 3D/2D. But it doesn't just switch between them, it blends them together unless you're at the extreme ends like 1 or 100. In my mind I see it as a see-saw or a fulcrum. At 50 it has an equal bias toward either 3D or 2D and the change is blended so not a drastic change (no artifacts). At 1 it is locked to 3D all the time and at 100 it is locked to 2D. The switch is very visual and artifacts appear on screen. I have mine set somewhere between 25-50 depending on the disc. So a slight bias towards 3D combing."
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Mechromancer
Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Posts: 22
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Link Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:25 am Post subject: |
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Hulio wrote: | I don't have any experience with Lumagen processors, but I know that for SD, and especially for LD enthusiasts, Crystalio II-3800 is the way to go. It has one of the best adjustable comb filters in the consumer market.
Here a quote from someone on LD forum:
"I know not many people have these and they're getting harder and harder to find. However, they are one of the best options for LD processing. The people here who drove me to the madness of video processors have moved on to the next stratosphere of technology and I am happy to watch them try to reach the Sun.
The C2 is still a valid option for LD and still one of the best if you can find one. Part of the reason why is due to the fact that you can adjust the comb filter settings. Very few processors out there allow this. Some TVs will have these adjustments in the Service Menus but that isn't as convenient as a normal menu. Lumagen and the EVAL board are the only two that come to mind.
Anyway, I've read the threads here about the settings and also experimented myself. Some of the info seems unclear as presented and I'd like to share my own personal experience and settings. You don't have to use them and maybe they aren't correct for your system. Use these as a guide and a stepping stone.
There are 4 settings. Each setting is from 0-100 steps. They are:
Luma Gain
Chroma Gain
Luma Coring
Chroma Coring
Previously, I was using settings found here in other posts. While that was helpful it did not get me the results I had hoped for. So I re-read them and also re-read the TI TVP5160 3d Comb Filter Operation Guide and experimented on my own.
Here are my conclusions:
Think of Gain as a balance between 3D and 2D combing. Depending on the setting it defines how fast the filter switches between 3D/2D. But it doesn't just switch between them, it blends them together unless you're at the extreme ends like 1 or 100. In my mind I see it as a see-saw or a fulcrum. At 50 it has an equal bias toward either 3D or 2D and the change is blended so not a drastic change (no artifacts). At 1 it is locked to 3D all the time and at 100 it is locked to 2D. The switch is very visual and artifacts appear on screen. I have mine set somewhere between 25-50 depending on the disc. So a slight bias towards 3D combing." |
Thanx Hulio. Appreciate the info. I didn't know that the Crystalio had an adjustable comb filter. That certainly sounds interesting and might be the way I want to go...if I can figure out how to use the settings.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 303 Location: Switzerland
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Link Posted: Mon Aug 23, 2021 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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Mechromancer wrote: |
Thanx Hulio. Appreciate the info. I didn't know that the Crystalio had an adjustable comb filter. That certainly sounds interesting and might be the way I want to go...if I can figure out how to use the settings. |
There's something new happening in the 3D Comb Filter world:
https://www.singmai.com/Modules/sm03.html
have a look at their manual
may become the best 3D comb filter ever designed.
the guy worked for Snell & Wilcox as a decoder engineer, so he knows what he's doing.
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Mechromancer
Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Posts: 22
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Link Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:29 am Post subject: |
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nidi wrote: | Mechromancer wrote: |
Thanx Hulio. Appreciate the info. I didn't know that the Crystalio had an adjustable comb filter. That certainly sounds interesting and might be the way I want to go...if I can figure out how to use the settings. |
There's something new happening in the 3D Comb Filter world:
https://www.singmai.com/Modules/sm03.html
have a look at their manual
may become the best 3D comb filter ever designed.
the guy worked for Snell & Wilcox as a decoder engineer, so he knows what he's doing. |
Oh, nice! Thank you so much for the heads up.
I have a friend that owns a business installing large-screen displays in casino sports books, here in Vegas, and high-end home theaters. He's looking for a Lumgan 2124 for me. He already got me a Crystalio II 3800 to try out. But this seems very intersting. Although I must say, they didn't do themselves any favors posting a 480p video.
Has anyone tried this unit? And how complicated (or easy) would it be to integrate into a system?
Thanx
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 303 Location: Switzerland
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Link Posted: Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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Mechromancer wrote: |
Has anyone tried this unit? And how complicated (or easy) would it be to integrate into a system?
Thanx |
I received the unit a couple of weeks ago.
FW is not yet finished, some menus are not yet active.
but sharpness and comb filter performance is awesome.
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Mechromancer
Joined: 19 Jul 2021 Posts: 22
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 12:02 am Post subject: |
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nidi wrote: | Mechromancer wrote: |
Has anyone tried this unit? And how complicated (or easy) would it be to integrate into a system?
Thanx |
I received the unit a couple of weeks ago.
FW is not yet finished, some menus are not yet active.
but sharpness and comb filter performance is awesome. |
Nice!
Any chance you could post a couple of comparison screen shots or a better vid than they did (480p really wasn't helpful as the image was pretty terrible all around).
Thanx
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 303 Location: Switzerland
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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sorry, I do not have an SDI capture card yet.
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virusc
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 Posts: 322 Location: Massachusetts
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Link Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:04 am Post subject: |
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Didn't some of the older Lumagen's have SDI input? Maybe get the card and run SDI to a older scaler? I want one for my TV setup (not theater) but I don't want to spend the thousands on a new Lumagen or other scaler just for laserdiscs. One of my friends who is a big laserdisc collector has a LG OLED TV that says the composite input is the best he has seen except for a exceptional scaler/comb filter combo that costs more than the TV by far.
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 303 Location: Switzerland
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Link Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:56 pm Post subject: Lumagen SDI input |
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virusc wrote: | Didn't some of the older Lumagen's have SDI input? Maybe get the card and run SDI to a older scaler? I want one for my TV setup (not theater) but I don't want to spend the thousands on a new Lumagen or other scaler just for laserdiscs. One of my friends who is a big laserdisc collector has a LG OLED TV that says the composite input is the best he has seen except for a exceptional scaler/comb filter combo that costs more than the TV by far. |
SDI was an option on the older Radiance scalers.
by far the best comb filter I have encountered is on the HLD-X0 MUSE player.
I have tested dozens of units and still can't find anything better.
there is a UK company lead by an ex employee of Snell & Wilcox (moving zone plate test pattern)
on the Video Essentials LaserDisc.
https://www.singmai.com/Modules/sm03.html
but it's still not ready, have the unit here but Firmware not yet ready.
the Kramer VP-773 has the ADV7842 chip which some people find to be also a very good 3D Y/C comb filter
will output 480P for further processing.
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=10036
this unit sometimes can be found for less than $400
it also has a a lot of 3D comb filter settings which can be adjusted to your liking
Michael
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nidi
Joined: 17 Aug 2008 Posts: 303 Location: Switzerland
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