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G70 set up Questions.
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OOvvHH




Joined: 14 Feb 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:55 pm    Post subject: G70 set up Questions. Reply with quote


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Hello i have recently succeeded in mounting my G70 and I am running into some things that i am yet to comprehend.
I realise its a long post on information that is not used a lot anymore so any pointers you can give me are greatly appreciated.

First off i know i am doing things backwards. I first mounted the PJ and screen and now i am starting to do the setup.

The PJ is hung on the back wall of my shed to have as much throw distance as possible. I am bouncing it via a first surface mirror i got from a rear projection tv.
I measured everything with a laser measure
3,43 metres from wall to wall
3,63 from wall to screen
3,29 from lens bounced of mirror to screen

From a diagram i found in the manual from the previous owner i think the PJ was calibrated on a projection distance of 2,52 metres, so maybe i should mount it on the ceiling ?
Because if I subtract the length of the PJ from my distance wall to screen i get 363 - 94,8 = 268,2 which is a lot closer to what it was initially calibrated

I am slowly working through the crt primer, manual and am watching the 2+ hour install dvd.
My first problem was not getting into service mode but luckily i found this thread and now i can get in to service mode.
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11041&start=0

And then i read this post.
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=122549&sid=4e91ad6ffc2580504698127af93a41a8#122549
In that post and the crt primer and the youtube video everybody talks about the mechanical aligning of the rasters and the tubes and it feels really daunting. I am worried that i might damage the tubes by moving the pattern electronically too far and then thats it, no more PJ.

Luckily i found a fellow crt enthusiast in the Netherlands who i can bounce ideas off of.

What i can do in the limited space i have is i can move the PJ around on the back wall or even mount it on the ceiling.
The idea that i have now and is that i need to get the projection square and aligned so i can actually read the menus and then move the projector a bit to centre the image on the screen.

So to sum up my situation to give as much info as possible.

Distance between the 2 walls of the shed is 3.43 mtr
The throw distance is 3,29 mtrs.
If mounted on the ceiling it would be 2,68 metres
I havet a first surface mirror.
The screen is 107 inch 16:9 format and can slide to the right if necessary or i could make a permanent white wall and ditch the screen.
It looks like my PJ has nec tubes so they are not bell shaped so i can not put the raster all the way to the side.

My questions.

1.Looking at the pictures is it safe to make all the adjustments through the menus ? As to not damage the tubes.

2.Is it possible to make the the projected image smaller to fit the screen or is this mainly done by moving the PJ ?

3.Do i need to mount the mirror at 45 degrees or can i see what works ?

4. If i need to do the rasters with my nec tubes how do i know i went to far ? I cant put them all the waty to the sides ?

Kind regards Oliver.



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Last edited by OOvvHH on Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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OOvvHH




Joined: 14 Feb 2020
Posts: 9



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This always happens but i think i found the page that i need.

http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTSetupGuide2.shtm

So i think i need to put the PJ on the ceiling for the correct throw distance.
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kal
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TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: G70 set up Questions. Reply with quote

OOvvHH wrote:
The PJ is hung on the back wall of my shed to have as much throw distance as possible.

Just so that you know (you may be fine), CRT projectors have a FIXED throw distance for a given screen width. There is only one correct throw for a specific CRT projector model for a specific screen size. Everything else will either not fill the screen horizontally (projector too close) or use too little of the projector tube phosphor width (projector too far).

See the instructions here: http://www.curtpalme.com/TubeCondition_PoorInstall.shtm

Quote:

Quote:
to maximize tube life even further do the following steps:

Put the projector on the cart or simply leave it on the floor so that you can move it.
Display something that fills the screen entirely (like a grid test pattern).
Using only the green (middle) tube, look into the tube and increase the image width on the tube face until it is around 1/8" to 1/4" from the edge of the white phosphor. Under no circumstances should you allow the image to go off of the white phosphor surface!
Move the projector back and forth until the image fits your screen.
THAT is the correct throw distance for optimal phosphor usage.

It'll usually be 5-8% closer than what the manual tell you because the manual throw instructions are conservative since they make you install blindly without even looking in the tubes at all.


No different than if you're using mirrors. They just allow you to have the throw you need in a tighter space.
Ignore all the math and calculators. Actually look into the green tube and do it that way. It's more accurate as you can actually SEE where the image is in relation to the tube surface instead of blindly relying on calculators (which tend to be non-optimal/pessimistic).

Quote:
1.Looking at the pictures is it safe to make all the adjustments through the menus ? As to not damage the tubes.

Keep the active image on the phosphor surface and you'll be fine. Your raster (the 'canvas' on to which the image can paint) can go off the surface, and is often done to reduce ringing on the left side. You then use blanking to ensure that you never move it off accidentally. All this said, having an active image off the phosphor surface for a few seconds or even a minute is probably not going to do any harm. Over time the heat can damage/crack the glass. Keep your contrast down low while doing all this setup (which you kinda need to anyway as you'll be looking directly into the green tube) and you'll be fine.

Quote:
2.Is it possible to make the the projected image smaller to fit the screen or is this mainly done by moving the PJ ?

Again, there is only one correct throw distance for a given screen width. That's where the phosphor usage is maxed horizontally.

Quote:
3.Do i need to mount the mirror at 45 degrees or can i see what works ?

Not sure what or why you're asking. Use a mirror any way you like or need to to get things to fit.

Quote:
4. If i need to do the rasters with my nec tubes how do i know i went to far ? I cant put them all the waty to the sides ?

Look in the tubes, keep the active image area on the phosphor surface. You'll know you've gone too far if you're off the tube surface. You'll really know you've gone too far if the tube cracks and you have coolant leaking out. Wink

Make sure you understand the difference between raster and active image area. Read everything here: http://www.curtpalme.com/TubeRasterSetup.shtm

Good luck!

Kal

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Last edited by kal on Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOvvHH wrote:
This always happens but i think i found the page that i need.

http://www.curtpalme.com/CRTSetupGuide2.shtm

So i think i need to put the PJ on the ceiling for the correct throw distance.

Throw is throw. It's the distance the light travels from the lenses to the screen. Doesn't matter if it's floor or ceiling mounted, or if you're using mirrors between the two.

Kal

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AnalogRocks
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TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey I like the air conditioner you have mounted on your rear wall. Do you know it has Red Green and Blue light bulbs in it? Laughing

I would go ahead and set all the setting in the menu's to 128 with the exception of color balance. You need the green cross hairs in the middle of the screen. The red and the blue will align to them.

Your first step is mechanical tow in for the lenses and tube assemblies . I think the G70 uses spacers like the other series but don't quote me on that. I've had hands on with D50 and G90 but never the G70. The reason for mechanical alignment is so you have enough electronic set up range. That's why I say set your menu settings to 128 ( this is mid point ) and do the mechanical alignment first them do the electronic. It's fun once you get the hang of it. My fist setup on a 1252 was hours and hours. Now I can have one to 90% setup in 10-15 minutes. Then you let it all heat up and do your final tweaks with the covers on the projector.

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OOvvHH




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok thanks, i double checked and my screen size is 104 inch 16:9 which translates in mm to 129 x 230 so i should probably calculate my measurements with the formula from the manual.

Just to check for shure. This beamer is intended for 4:3 viewing right ? If i want widescreen I would have to set the rasters to widescreen and lose a lot of upper and lower fosfor ?

I saw someone who solved this by apperantly sliding his pj forward on rails if he wanted widescreen and backwards for 4:3 or did i understand that wrong ?

I am felling less daunted now. much thanks.
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOvvHH wrote:
Ok thanks, i double checked and my screen size is 104 inch 16:9 which translates in mm to 129 x 230 so i should probably calculate my measurements with the formula from the manual.

Again, throw away the formulas / calculators as they're not optimal. Set your throw this way:

- Put the projector on the cart or simply leave it on the floor so that you can move it.
- Display something that fills the screen entirely (like a grid test pattern).
- Using only the green (middle) tube, look into the tube and increase the image width on the tube face until it is around 1/8" to 1/4" from the edge of the white phosphor. Under no circumstances should you allow the image to go off of the white phosphor surface!
- Move the projector back and forth (increasing/decreasing throw) until the image fits your screen.
- THAT is the correct throw distance for optimal phosphor usage.

Quote:
Just to check for shure. This beamer is intended for 4:3 viewing right ?

The phosphor tube surface is 4:3. You can any aspect ratio you like, you just use less height. Most people who used (or still use) CRT had (or have) 16:9 screens. I always did.

Quote:
If i want widescreen I would have to set the rasters to widescreen and lose a lot of upper and lower fosfor ?

Correct.

Quote:
I saw someone who solved this by apperantly sliding his pj forward on rails if he wanted widescreen and backwards for 4:3 or did i understand that wrong ?

If you do constant image height (what SMPTE recommends) when switching between the two that would work but would be very odd as CRT projectors are pretty fussy about exacting position never mind that they're very heavy and having precision rails to do this easily would be expensive. I would never do that myself nor have I ever heard of anyone doing that. I've always done constant width like most other CRT projector owners (CRT projector doesn't move).

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
Your first step is mechanical tow in for the lenses and tube assemblies.

I would say that toe-in is the second step.

First step is getting the right throw distance using only the green tube. Get that throw perfect. That's then where the projector lives forever.

Then angle the other two tubes in (called toe-in) to get them to line up with the green and continue with the setup.

Kal

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OOvvHH




Joined: 14 Feb 2020
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Ignore all the math and calculators. Actually look into the green tube and do it that way." just realized what you typed there.

"- Put the projector on the cart or simply leave it on the floor so that you can move it. "
Ill have to make that work somehow, very small apartment but ill think of something.

I understand the tube wear pictures.

This is going to be interesting.
Most diffucult part is finding friends that will help me get this thing off the wall and back up again.
They all think my crt hobby is weird.
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOvvHH wrote:
They all think my crt hobby is weird.

Welcome to the weirdness! Wink

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, the one confusing thing on Sonys is that the V shift is done on Zone 1 in convergence. The V shift on the keypad, with the individual buttons is fine tuning only. set those to midposition (128), and then use Zone 1 in the convergence for the master V shift. I used to get tons of emails about that from first time G70 and G90 owners.
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AnalogRocks
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TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
Your first step is mechanical tow in for the lenses and tube assemblies.

I would say that toe-in is the second step.

First step is getting the right throw distance using only the green tube. Get that throw perfect. That's then where the projector lives forever.

Then angle the other two tubes in (called toe-in) to get them to line up with the green and continue with the setup.

Kal


You are correct, however since the air conditioner projector was already hanging off the rear wall I made mechanical tow in the first step.

He's already got the projector and bounce mirror set up, the screen is hung so if he did need to get throw distance I guess he could just change the projectors spot on the wall.

So yeah, he needs to set the active image area to the phosphor ( or wear pattern ) then slide the projector forward and aft to get the screen filling size. Then fold that number to get the throw distance from projector to mirror, and mirror to screen.

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OOvvHH




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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
Hey I like the air conditioner you have mounted on your rear wall. Do you know it has Red Green and Blue light bulbs in it? Laughing

I would go ahead and set all the setting in the menu's to 128 with the exception of color balance. You need the green cross hairs projector.


You mean the menus and not the registration values when in service mode ?

AnalogRocks wrote:
kal wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
Your first step is mechanical tow in for the lenses and tube assemblies.

I would say that toe-in is the second step.

First step is getting the right throw distance using only the green tube. Get that throw perfect. That's then where the projector lives forever.

Then angle the other two tubes in (called toe-in) to get them to line up with the green and continue with the setup.

Kal


You are correct, however since the air conditioner projector was already hanging off the rear wall I made mechanical tow in the first step.

He's already got the projector and bounce mirror set up, the screen is hung so if he did need to get throw distance I guess he could just change the projectors spot on the wall.

So yeah, he needs to set the active image area to the phosphor ( or wear pattern ) then slide the projector forward and aft to get the screen filling size. Then fold that number to get the throw distance from projector to mirror, and mirror to screen.


When i started i was hoping i could somehow finagle it so that i could make the projection fit the screen but after seeing all the horrible horrible tube wear pictures i am realizing that would be bad.

I tried going as wide as possible with the built in raster test pattern but i cant seem to get over the edges of the tube. I am using the size registration buttons. Because i wanted to see the wrong way real quick so i know what it looks like.
Does the raster need to be perfectly square when i look into the lens ?

Curt Palme wrote:
BTW, the one confusing thing on Sonys is that the V shift is done on Zone 1 in convergence. The V shift on the keypad, with the individual buttons is fine tuning only. set those to midposition (128), and then use Zone 1 in the convergence for the master V shift. I used to get tons of emails about that from first time G70 and G90 owners.


The only v shift i can find in the manual is on the input settings menu is that what you mean ? Ill probably know what you mean when i come to that.

I have been peering into the lenses with a flashlight and to my disbelief i cant discern any burn in pattern the look completely uniform, no rectangles whatsoever not even a hint of any of the tube wear photos.

Would it be wise for me to take of the lenses ? Doesnt feel wise.

When i picked it up i was literally taken aback. i had no idea it was that big. I hid it to the side in our living room under a tarp hoping my wife wouldnt notice.....

She made me promise to deal with it. So now we have a shed in the back garden : )
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOvvHH wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
Hey I like the air conditioner you have mounted on your rear wall. Do you know it has Red Green and Blue light bulbs in it? Laughing

I would go ahead and set all the setting in the menu's to 128 with the exception of color balance. You need the green cross hairs projector.


You mean the menus and not the registration values when in service mode ?


Registration values to mid point 128 when in "SERVICEMAN" MODE




AnalogRocks wrote:
kal wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
Your first step is mechanical tow in for the lenses and tube assemblies.

I would say that toe-in is the second step.

First step is getting the right throw distance using only the green tube. Get that throw perfect. That's then where the projector lives forever.

Then angle the other two tubes in (called toe-in) to get them to line up with the green and continue with the setup.

Kal


You are correct, however since the air conditioner projector was already hanging off the rear wall I made mechanical tow in the first step.

He's already got the projector and bounce mirror set up, the screen is hung so if he did need to get throw distance I guess he could just change the projectors spot on the wall.

So yeah, he needs to set the active image area to the phosphor ( or wear pattern ) then slide the projector forward and aft to get the screen filling size. Then fold that number to get the throw distance from projector to mirror, and mirror to screen.

OOvvHH wrote:

When i started i was hoping i could somehow finagle it so that i could make the projection fit the screen but after seeing all the horrible horrible tube wear pictures i am realizing that would be bad.


Yeah, I've worked on a few where the 10-15 years of wear are off set to one side or taking up %60 in the middle with all that snowy white unused phosphor around it.

Don't sweat getting right to the very edge. Get it as close as the projector allows and set your active image area within it. Making sure your test patterns don't shoot off the side of the tube. How close can you get the Raster area to the sides of the tube right now?

OOvvHH wrote:


I tried going as wide as possible with the built in raster test pattern but i cant seem to get over the edges of the tube. I am using the size registration buttons. Because i wanted to see the wrong way real quick so i know what it looks like.
Does the raster need to be perfectly square when i look into the lens ?.


You won't get it perfectly square because of the mounting of the projector. It'll end up trapazoid. The only way you can get it square to the screen is if you table mount it midway up the screen and tilt the back up to be parallel with the screen. Maximum tube usage but then you have the light reflecting off the screen back into your lenses and killing the contrast.

OOvvHH wrote:

Curt Palme wrote:
BTW, the one confusing thing on Sonys is that the V shift is done on Zone 1 in convergence. The V shift on the keypad, with the individual buttons is fine tuning only. set those to midposition (128), and then use Zone 1 in the convergence for the master V shift. I used to get tons of emails about that from first time G70 and G90 owners.


The only v shift i can find in the manual is on the input settings menu is that what you mean ? Ill probably know what you mean when i come to that.

I have been peering into the lenses with a flashlight and to my disbelief i cant discern any burn in pattern the look completely uniform, no rectangles whatsoever not even a hint of any of the tube wear photos.

Would it be wise for me to take of the lenses ? Doesn't feel wise.

When i picked it up i was literally taken aback. i had no idea it was that big. I hid it to the side in our living room under a tarp hoping my wife wouldn't notice.....

She made me promise to deal with it. So now we have a shed in the back garden : )


Wife Acceptance Factor is usually low unless you have a dedicated room ( or shed). I installed one at my GF's place, bought a 4:3 Stewart screen , a SONY switcher, a Samsung HD ATSC tuner and a PS3 for blurays back in 2007. She gave me the "I don't care if it's a 14" TV, a 32" TV or a 120" TV it's all the same!" speech.
I walk in the next night American Idol is on and her and her girl friends are having an 'Idol party watching the big screen, not the 32" not the 14".
I asked if she was enjoying the bigger picture. She hushed me and said we'll talk later

I turned her D50 into a coffee table, it worked well and we used it for 12 or 13 years. Oh yeah and she married me too so it couldn't have been all bad. LOL Laughing

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OOvvHH




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PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the tips and instilled confidence.

This weekend i am going to set the beamer up on a table to see is i can use more phosphor that way with using a shorter throw distance. The difference in distance from screen between the wall mount and ceiling mount is the length of the beamer which is about 1 meter.

when i look in the lenses i see little dust and hairs under the lens. Is that OK ?

I will post some pictures of the crt's in action. If you could tell me is the space between the raster and the side of the crt is good that would be awesome.

Kind regards.
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OOvvHH wrote:
when i look in the lenses i see little dust and hairs under the lens. Is that OK ?

Depends. If you see it on the screen then no, as it's probably going to be distracting.

The closer an imperfection, dust, or hair is to the phosphor surface, the more likely you are to see it. The farther away it is, the less likely it will be you can see it on screen so it doesn't matter. For example, a fairly large dime sized scratch on the surface of a lens that is closest to the screen won't even be noticed as it's not near the focal point. You can try this yourself. Dangle a 0.5" or 1 cm diameter piece of paper or similar in front of the lens between the lens and the screen. Or just hold a finger in front of lens. You won't be able to see anything on screen given how lens optics work (at the outside of the lens the whole surface is used to form the image and you're only blocking a tiny fraction). Now take the lens off and stick something much smaller on the inner liquid coupled lens element. You'll definitely see it on the screen. (Don't actually go this - I just use this as an example) Wink

[quote]I will post some pictures of the crt's in action. If you could tell me is the space between the raster and the side of the crt is good that would be awesome.[quote]
Sure. You can also see the various pictures in the articles I linked to earlier that show proper (or at least reasonable) phosphor usage.

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:

Sure. You can also see the various pictures in the articles I linked to earlier that show proper (or at least reasonable) phosphor usage.

Kal


Then comparing the big grid green picture from the article to mine i would say it is ok, a little more would be nice. I made a collage because of the lens i cant capture the whole grid at once.

Also when i look into the lenses with a flashlight i cannot see any wear, so i got an 8 if not a 9 on the tubewear scale

Thanks.



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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hard to tell where the phosphor ends in your pics.

Easier to see if you take the lenses off during the initial green raster setup, like so:



Don't remove the curve c-element (the lens element stuck to the tube face).

More: http://www.curtpalme.com/SonyG70_Layout2.shtm

Kal

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PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:
kal wrote:
AnalogRocks wrote:
Your first step is mechanical tow in for the lenses and tube assemblies.

I would say that toe-in is the second step.

First step is getting the right throw distance using only the green tube. Get that throw perfect. That's then where the projector lives forever.

Then angle the other two tubes in (called toe-in) to get them to line up with the green and continue with the setup.

Kal


You are correct, however since the air conditioner projector was already hanging off the rear wall I made mechanical tow in the first step.

He's already got the projector and bounce mirror set up, the screen is hung so if he did need to get throw distance I guess he could just change the projectors spot on the wall.

So yeah, he needs to set the active image area to the phosphor ( or wear pattern ) then slide the projector forward and aft to get the screen filling size. Then fold that number to get the throw distance from projector to mirror, and mirror to screen.
I setup a little different. I first center the internal test patterns on the tube face with all settings at 128 (mid position). Then I mechanically toe the tubes. Then I perform a rough Scheimpflug adjustment. tweak the toe. Repeat Scheimpflug/toe couple more times. Scheimpflug will shift the image optically because you are shifting the focus planes. Dial this in first and you will need less electronic adjustment later on.

I recommend the Brain Hampton guide for G70 setup if you haven't already read it?

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AnalogRocks
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TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh yes the Shememfluggginjnn settings. I did neglect those.

In his bounce setup wouldn't he have to dismount the projector, get the throw distance, remount and bounce THEN do the Scheimpflug? I'd think those settings may change through the mirror bounce NO?

I've never seen the Brian Hampton G70 guide. OR I did and just no longer remember. Got a link?

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