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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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garyfritz wrote:
Looks amazing Craig! Bet it sounds just as amazing...

Thanks Gary!

Now I have it in my head to replace the volume knob on my MC-10. It's plastic and I think a nice aluminum one would look and feel a lot better. I've always wanted a metal lathe...

craigr

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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
garyfritz wrote:
Looks amazing Craig! Bet it sounds just as amazing...

Thanks Gary!

Now I have it in my head to replace the volume knob on my MC-10. It's plastic and I think a nice aluminum one would look and feel a lot better. I've always wanted a metal lathe...

craigr

So I just pulled the volume knob off the MC-10 and it actually is solid aluminum. It really feels like plastic though. I wonder how they made a perfectly nice volume knob feel so cheap! At least I can quit that idea.

Everyone on AudioKarma is telling me I shouldn't bother with the laser etching of the amps and they look better this way. I'm thinking I agree and it will save me $185 so I may very well be done with the project mostly.

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/reanodize-face-plate.935496/

craigr

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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
It's plastic and I think a nice aluminum one would look and feel a lot better.

... and if you follow audiophile forums you'll learn that it'll also sound better! Wink

Kal

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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
CIR Engineering wrote:
It's plastic and I think a nice aluminum one would look and feel a lot better.

... and if you follow audiophile forums you'll learn that it'll also sound better! Wink

Kal

Of course it will Idea

craigr

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AnalogRocks
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TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You need one of these to go with your amps:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=495703#495703

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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I’m really off the deep end... I changed all the 14 surface mount blue LEDs so now they match. Nicer blue too. I think this project is finished.

Now I have to make my equipment rack deeper to better accommodate these. It’s been almost a problem with several other pieces of kit so it’s been a long time coming. Then I’ll finis the NX9 hush box.

craigr

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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So let's discuss something that I've been slapped about on the audio Facebook groups. My theory:

Any two amps that are in good working shape, that are the same class of amp (AB, A, H , etc) and have the same RMS wattage rating, should sound very close to one another.

Now, going from say 50 watts a channel RMS to 200 watts a channel, and yes, there will be a significant difference potentially, all depending on how hard you are going to drive the amp.

What say you?
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
So let's discuss something that I've been slapped about on the audio Facebook groups. My theory:

Any two amps that are in good working shape, that are the same class of amp (AB, A, H , etc) and have the same RMS wattage rating, should sound very close to one another.

Now, going from say 50 watts a channel RMS to 200 watts a channel, and yes, there will be a significant difference potentially, all depending on how hard you are going to drive the amp.

What say you?

I find similar and agree power is the largest contributing factor. The more the better. One exception, I had an awesome Sansui dual monoblock integrated amp that just had something really special about the sound. Don't know how to explain that one.

What did shock me was listening to speaker wires, but I have a theory on that too. 25 or so years ago a dealer gave me several speaker cables to take home and audition. One of them was Kimber Kable and their typical braided stuff. When I tried this cable everything sounded just awful. Much to my surprise my girlfriend at the time who cared nothing for audio came in and asked what was wrong with the stereo.

I suspect that even though the KK was make up of loads of small wires the total AWG was low. I've found that speaker cables sound different to me if the gauge is below 12 AWG. After that, even Romex sounds the same. Ever since then I've always run 12 AWG even when bi-amping.

The other weird wire thing that logic defies in my opinion is that bi-wiring sounds better to my ear. The explanations for this are total BS, yet none the less it sounds better. This has left me head scratching for decades.

craigr

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kal
Forum Administrator



Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17850
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Storage or potential is a big factor in some designs I find. When you buy a cheap receiver the amplifier's usually one large chip that handles everything and while it may be able to meet the RMS spec some can't do it for more than a split second, definitely not continuous. While a good amp will have that extra storage (electrolytic caps, a good transformer, etc) to be able to provide power longer. End result I find is better control and slam on better amps. This is mostly class A and AB stuff - everything goes out the window with G&H, and D class.

Kal

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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is, ALL of the new commercial power amps work that way. Insane power specs, but then read the fine print, and they develop that output for something like 20ms only.
I had a PowerSoft amp on the bench last year, it's one of the 'new' brands, along with Labgruppen, etc, and actually saw the sine wave being clamped down on the bench with a sine wave. Spikes of 500W per channel, but 300W continuous.

the argument is that music doesn't need continuous power, as a bass drum kick is momentary. They call it 'crest factor'. I asked on a Facebook group what happened when an EDM bass drone note went through the system, and pretty much everyone shut up.

I don't want my amp doing the limiting for me, I have access to a compressor/limiter if need be.

BTW, Ray Kimber is a buddy of mine online. He's sent me a bunch of reel to reel business, and buys decks regularly. When travel is allowed again, I want to go to Utah to meet him, and have a cable discussion with him.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Storage or potential is a big factor in some designs I find. When you buy a cheap receiver the amplifier's usually one large chip that handles everything and while it may be able to meet the RMS spec some can't do it for more than a split second, definitely not continuous. While a good amp will have that extra storage (electrolytic caps, a good transformer, etc) to be able to provide power longer. End result I find is better control and slam on better amps. This is mostly class A and AB stuff - everything goes out the window with G&H, and D class.

Kal

Exactly. With class AB just picking the amp up to see how heavy it is will give you a good idea of how it will sound. The bigger the transformer and the more caps the more power and reserve it has.

But like you say, class AB is one thing because it's around 50% efficient, but class D is over 90% efficient. Those JBL Synthesis amps I had in here were class D and only weight 35 lbs which is quite heavy for class D amps. A lot of class D's you can practically blow off the shelf, but they can really put out. Class G and H need a bit of oomph for their AB side, but are still usually pretty lite because they switch to D at pretty low power levels.

craigr

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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
Thing is, ALL of the new commercial power amps work that way. Insane power specs, but then read the fine print, and they develop that output for something like 20ms only.
I had a PowerSoft amp on the bench last year, it's one of the 'new' brands, along with Labgruppen, etc, and actually saw the sine wave being clamped down on the bench with a sine wave. Spikes of 500W per channel, but 300W continuous.

the argument is that music doesn't need continuous power, as a bass drum kick is momentary. They call it 'crest factor'. I asked on a Facebook group what happened when an EDM bass drone note went through the system, and pretty much everyone shut up.

I don't want my amp doing the limiting for me, I have access to a compressor/limiter if need be.

BTW, Ray Kimber is a buddy of mine online. He's sent me a bunch of reel to reel business, and buys decks regularly. When travel is allowed again, I want to go to Utah to meet him, and have a cable discussion with him.

Yup, I've always said that is all a bunch of BS. I hate the modified rating ideas, it makes the spec of output power meaningless. One of my clients had whatever the last special Sunfire amp was. It was rated at like 400 watts per channel with seven channels... it's AB and weighed 35 lbs. I was like no way, you cannot make a class AB with that much power with so little weight (and the faceplate was thick probably weighing +5 lbs its self). Client switched it out with the JBL 7200 class D and was thrilled with the improvement.

craigr

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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But you should see the arguments I got into with the 'kids' running big rave systems. Even the sales AND tech support guy at PowerSoft had no answers for me, save for 'try it, you'll hear the difference'. Nope, I didn't.

One of the kids in the Facebook groups that is idolized by a bunch of others said it's because the PS amp reuses the back EMF created from the speaker voice coil, as to why they put out so much power. I replied 'well, that's good for 1/2 watt tops, next answer?' Smile
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jask




Joined: 17 Mar 2006
Posts: 10164
Location: kamloops BC


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

huh.... weird!!? when I hook my amp up to speakers instead of an oscilloscope without a load... it behaves ..differently Smile

when it comes to amps my money always goes with caps and copper, but there are times when class D is good enough.. we often use powered speakers and subs like the Yorkville YX for outdoor parties and with a pocket mixer a couple mics ( if anyone is playing live ) and some cables it is a 1 beer setup/teardown
.... I wonder if Kimber Kables would improve the sound quality? Wink
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jask




Joined: 17 Mar 2006
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Location: kamloops BC


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
But you should see the arguments I got into with the 'kids' running big rave systems. Even the sales AND tech support guy at PowerSoft had no answers for me, save for 'try it, you'll hear the difference'. Nope, I didn't.

One of the kids in the Facebook groups that is idolized by a bunch of others said it's because the PS amp reuses the back EMF created from the speaker voice coil, as to why they put out so much power. I replied 'well, that's good for 1/2 watt tops, next answer?' Smile


Hahaha that is awesome!! what next? the speaker surround is actually a dynamic energy storage element Wink
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jask wrote:
huh.... weird!!? when I hook my amp up to speakers instead of an oscilloscope without a load... it behaves ..differently Smile

when it comes to amps my money always goes with caps and copper, but there are times when class D is good enough.. we often use powered speakers and subs like the Yorkville YX for outdoor parties and with a pocket mixer a couple mics ( if anyone is playing live ) and some cables it is a 1 beer setup/teardown
.... I wonder if Kimber Kables would improve the sound quality? Wink

GOOD class D amps have really come a very long way in the last ten years, but especially in the past 3-4 years. Audiophile grade like the SDA 7200's have a very nice sound that almost is like the best of tube mixed with the best of solid state. Granted, we wouldn't be graduating to class G and H if D was top dog, but there are some awesome ones out there. Not too long ago I read some detailed tech articles on why class D is sounding better, but the reasons have already left me. Google is easy.

craigr

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Phone: 865-405-6892
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jask wrote:
Curt Palme wrote:
But you should see the arguments I got into with the 'kids' running big rave systems. Even the sales AND tech support guy at PowerSoft had no answers for me, save for 'try it, you'll hear the difference'. Nope, I didn't.

One of the kids in the Facebook groups that is idolized by a bunch of others said it's because the PS amp reuses the back EMF created from the speaker voice coil, as to why they put out so much power. I replied 'well, that's good for 1/2 watt tops, next answer?' Smile


Hahaha that is awesome!! what next? the speaker surround is actually a dynamic energy storage element Wink


There is merit to using speaker back EMF. Meyer Sound used it in the 80s (and others jumped on board), as they found out that as speaker voice coils hit the detonation point ( or close to it), the back EMF would change. Meyer used that to trigger limiters within their processors, to shift the crossover frequency away from sending more power to the speaker that was getting close. EV and Renkus Heinz followed suit.

The Commodore Ballroom had one of those Meyer rigs in the last 80s, and if you plugged your ears during a super loud concert, you could actually hear the crossover shifting, as you'd get a bit of a phasing effect.

But.. more power to the amp... as the kids say today.. MEH! Smile
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thealexw09




Joined: 02 Dec 2023
Posts: 1
Location: Austin,TX


PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey there! I came across your post and happen to have an LX-7 that has two channels acting up even though all lights on the front panel are blue. I was curious if you remembered what the tech said were the common problems and things to check first.
Grandfather passed away and left me this amp and some speaker so I’d love to try and get it up and running!

Any help really appreciated! I Also, nice job on the black finish! Looks amazing!
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2023 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thealexw09 wrote:
Hey there! I came across your post and happen to have an LX-7 that has two channels acting up even though all lights on the front panel are blue. I was curious if you remembered what the tech said were the common problems and things to check first.
Grandfather passed away and left me this amp and some speaker so I’d love to try and get it up and running!

Any help really appreciated! I Also, nice job on the black finish! Looks amazing!


Sending you a PM.

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*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kal wrote:
Wow - that looks great Craig! I definitely think you did the right thing having them anodized. It would have bugged me as well. Wink

CIR Engineering wrote:
Oh yeah, another thing is that after I took the photos I added neutral density filters to the LEDs so they wouldn't be so bright in my dark room. I just barely like to be able to see them in the dark so they aren't distracting, but they still provide their information (blue is nominal, red is overheat...).

I used to do the same on my bright pre-pro VFD (same idea as yours) back when it was facing into the room. The silly thing was so bright it would light up the room!

Kal

Been a long time, but many moons ago I changed all the blue LED's in both units because they were different colors. While I was in there, I experimented with different resistor values for the LED brightness. I found a value I like (I forget what, but it's super high, like 20kh or something) and now I don't need the ND filters anymore.

_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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