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jrodefeld
Joined: 19 Mar 2012
Posts: 18
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 Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:06 am Post subject: Areas where CRT is unsurpassed? |
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Hello everyone,
I'm a newbie here but I've been lurking around these parts for a few years. I've developed a new appreciation for CRT technology as I've been using a CRT monitor (FW900) with my computer for a couple of years. I've never owned a projector of any kind, but it's always been an aspiration of mine to build a home theater room.
You're probably aware of the explosion in popularity of CRT monitors for gamers in recent years. My own experience confirms that the FW900 is better, all things considered, than even very high end LCD monitors and not just for gaming. The color depth and motion resolution benefit all video content and images, at least to my eyes.
I understand that projectors are a whole different beast.
I guess my question is, putting aside practical considerations, if you compare the best of CRT projectors with the best of digital, are there areas where CRT is way better still?
And when I say "best of digital", I mean within a somewhat reasonable budget, say less than $20,000.
Are those of you still sticking with CRT doing so because you're really getting better picture quality at the end of the day, or because you enjoy tweaking your equipment as a hobby, or merely because you're in the habit of using CRT and you don't want the hassle of changing?
Thanks! Love the site by the way.
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sevs
Joined: 19 Sep 2017
Posts: 39
Location: Norway
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| Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:36 am Post subject: |
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-input lag
-motion blur
-refresh rate
-compatibility with different devices, resolution modes and refresh rates
-supports interlace, no inherent need for deinterlacing
-no upscaling needed (although home cinema people seem to prefer scalers and linedoublers and whatnot)
-black levels (people here seem to argue that lcd/dlp pjs are close enough that it doesn't matter though)
-no screen door effect
-easier to fine tune convergence if the need arises (if you get misconvergence on a dlp or lcd pj you're SOL unless there's some new convergence adjustment technology now that I haven't heard of)
-cooler 
The top two bullet points are my main reasons why I use CRT projectors and monitors (and I have quite a few TVs too). CRTs are just mesmerizingly amazing to use for gaming (see the Digital foundry video on youtube confirms this).
I don't really game all that much though, but my CRTs are really comfortable for me to use for CAD work, browsing the internet and the like, because for one I can read text while scrolling, and it's just feels inexplicably comfortable and snappy when everything responds immediately and reliably.
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Barco Data 701s - Barco Graphics 808s - Barco Graphics 1200
Please refrain from discussing CRT vs DLP, your opinions on CRT projection, economics, politics or anything similar in my threads.
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12026
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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CRTs definitely win the Heavyweight Division. 
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1335
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| Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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And they're noisy buggers but I still love my G90 despite the negatives
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17860
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| sevs wrote: | | -compatibility with different devices, resolution modes and refresh rates |
Digitals are also compatible with those. I think what you mean is that CRT will display them natively as what the CRT projector is fed. That's not necessarily a good thing as most have a sweet spot in terms of resolution for a certain screen size / tube technology so you *want* to use a scaler of some sort with CRT for most sources. Digitals simply have that built in and everything is converted to the native resolution.
| Quote: | | -black levels (people here seem to argue that lcd/dlp pjs are close enough that it doesn't matter though) |
Depends on the model.
See my thoughts here when I switched to a JVC RS56 digital back in 2013: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32973
A quote:
| kal wrote: | | So how is the actual black level (16)? Better than my Zenith 1200 CRT projector. Yes, that's right. Better. Why? I can get darker with the RS56 without losing low level detail. On the Zenith 1200 (gamma set to around 2.2 or 2.3 if I remember correctly with an RTC2200 box) I have to turn brightness up slightly to avoid losing close to black detail. With a Radiance or something more advanced that provides 20-point gamma adjustment, I may have been able to keep black lower on the CRT without crushing close to black detail. I don't know. So while I say the RS56 has better blacks on my setup, both are fantastic. You don't notice elevated blacks on either. I was worried about black level on the RS56 but my fears are unfounded. |
I think a lot of CRT owners who tout the black level properties of their projectors are actually crushing black. I know with my CRTs over the year had I set the black level to be true "black" I would have been. Very few go the extra mile to have something like a Radiance to do it right.
| Quote: | | -no screen door effect |
Not an issue if you get the right digital. Fill rate is so high it's not noticed and newer models for years (including mine) do pixel shift such that you don't see pixels at all. It's very CRT-like.
| Quote: | | -easier to fine tune convergence if the need arises (if you get misconvergence on a dlp or lcd pj you're SOL unless there's some new convergence adjustment technology now that I haven't heard of) |
Digitals have had this stuff for years now. Mine from 2013 does. I use it to tweak a few spots.
| Quote: | | -cooler |
I believe you mean hotter. 
Kal
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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
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kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 17860
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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| Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Areas where CRT is unsurpassed? |
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| jrodefeld wrote: | | Are those of you still sticking with CRT doing so because you're really getting better picture quality at the end of the day, or because you enjoy tweaking your equipment as a hobby, or merely because you're in the habit of using CRT and you don't want the hassle of changing? |
I think over the years the reasons have shifted.
For me it was always about image quality, so when I first got into home theater in the early 1990s CRT was the only option. There were some digitals but they all sucked. Boy, did they ever suck.
So I had to learn CRTs inside and out as I wanted the best image quality possible as a poorly set up CRT will also suck. By 2000 I had the opportunty to move from direct view to projector so I bought a used Barco 800 CRT projector (from Curt of course) as it was 1/10th the cost of new and better than the cheapest new CRT projector. They're more difficult to set up and I had to do a lot of work with hushboxing and exhausting to avoid the noise from affecting the HT sound quality too much. You can see what I did here: http://www.curtpalme.com/Hushbox1.shtm
Digital at that time (2000) still really sucked when I compared so for me CRT was still the only option I could live with. I couldn't believe how much money some were spending on their home theaters and plunking in a digital that just wasn't engaging. Extremely elevated black levels, horrible screen door, and the big one for me: Horrible contrast ratio which make the image seem incredibly flat and lifeless.
So back then people that were into CRT were more into image quality and didn't mind the learning curve. You could buy cheaper digitals. Some did.
By 2011 we had bought a new house so the HT had to be redone and that happened in 2012. The design didn't easily allow for the existing Zenith 1200 / Barco Cine 8 Onyx CRT projector to fit even though I was still thrilled with the performance (I had basically acquired it new around 2008 timeframe). So I went digital with a JVC RS56 (around $6K MSRP at the time if I remember correctly) but had lots of concerns given I was somewhat fussy about image quality. You can read my thoughts here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=32973
Today things have completely changed however. Those that stick with CRT I find are most either because it still works (don't change it if isn't broken) or because they're dirt cheap (or even free). There are still some of course that want very high end CRT (Sony G90, Barco Cine 9/909, Marquee 9500LC) because they like or are used to the image or have specific needs.
| Quote: | | And when I say "best of digital", I mean within a somewhat reasonable budget, say less than $20,000. |
I think most here would say $20K is very high - most do not spend 1/10th that on either technology.
Today I'm still running the RS56 I installed in January 2013 and still loving the image quality with no desire to upgrade to newer models. On my 3rd bulb so far (I swap them when the warning comes on at 2900 hours), about 7000 hours on it now.
Cheers!
Kal
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My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
Last edited by kal on Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:05 pm; edited 3 times in total
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garyfritz
Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 12026
Location: Fort Collins, CO
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| Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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Especially if you buy used. I bought a used RS-45 for $800 and I'm delighted with it. The picture is MUCH better than any results I was able to get with my NEC XG-852, Marquee 8500 (with color-filtered lenses and several internal improvements), Dwin 700, or Sony G70. Several of those had "issues" that affected the picture quality, but that was a fact of life with many used CRTs. My RS-45 "just works" and looks awesome.
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jbltecnicspro
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512
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| Link Posted: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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CRT's win in terms of being able to run any resolution thrown at it, provided you have the bandwidth and it's within scan range. Everything is "native" resolution with a CRT. Definitely my favorite aspect of it. Don't forget motion clarity too. Strobed LCD monitors are pretty sweet but CRT is still king in motion clarity.
For PC monitors, the only thing that they lack in, in terms of visuals, is sharpness. Other than that, they're still great displays.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2857
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Link Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:00 am Post subject: |
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I don't think this thread is about what digitals can do but rather where CRTs are better as well as why those of us still using a CRT projector are doing so.
Its always the same when ever anyone puts up the strenghts of CRT projectors those with digitals want to jump in. This is also not a thread for the reason why anyone switched either.
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jbltecnicspro
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512
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| Link Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | I don't think this thread is about what digitals can do but rather where CRTs are better as well as why those of us still using a CRT projector are doing so.
Its always the same when ever anyone puts up the strenghts of CRT projectors those with digitals want to jump in. This is also not a thread for the reason why anyone switched either. |
Hear hear. My favorite display still remains to be CRT. Something about it that even the latest and "greatest" LCD monitors cannot touch. I'm currently using an AOC 27 inch VA monitor. 2560x1440 and it looks great (I'm using it at 120hz). I calibrated it and it's pretty accurate after calibration.
However... My old F520 still rocks its socks. Go figure. 
Even with the strobed backlight and good (for LCD) motion clarity, a good CRT still knocks it out of the park, especially for games.
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johnyfazer
Joined: 14 Jan 2014
Posts: 55
Location: Poland
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| Link Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| garyfritz wrote: | | Especially if you buy used. I bought a used RS-45 for $800 and I'm delighted with it. The picture is MUCH better than any results I was able to get with my NEC XG-852, Marquee 8500 (with color-filtered lenses and several internal improvements), Dwin 700, or Sony G70. Several of those had "issues" that affected the picture quality, but that was a fact of life with many used CRTs. My RS-45 "just works" and looks awesome. |
Used JVC RS46, displayed 1800 hours, costs around USD 1420 in Poland. The new RS46 costs 3710 USD. The new, never used CRT Barco 908 Baron retroblock, 124 hours, with the latest sharpest 3D graphics lamps, costs me $ 200. I will not be convinced to spend such a big difference in money, because the differences in the image will be small. The climate of the CRT projector and the dynamics of its image are still a priority for me. The new CRT means long years of lamp wear and the possibility of cheap repair. I like to watch faces and confuse people-friends who, seeing my "old, big, heavy basket" that they see for the first time in their lives, are delighted with the quality of the image and never again call the CRT projector old garbage  . However, you need to spend a lot of time to get the best good picture. Many cannot do this or have no patience.The crt projector should not be bought as a heavily used lamp and mask for hours - it certainly doesn't make sense
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| 2019 rok , the new barco 908, it happens :) |
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jbltecnicspro
Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 512
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| Link Posted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly, if you can get your projector dialed in then yes, I think it's a worth competitor to the RS-46. The fact that CRT's don't age as quickly as bulbs do also helps.
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AnalogRocks
Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 26690
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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| Link Posted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Don't forget, CRT's are a good way to get you and 3 friends together to move a 9" beast then you have an excuse to go out for wings and onion rings.
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