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4K vs eye resolution

 
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Curt Palme
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

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PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:17 pm    Post subject: 4K vs eye resolution Reply with quote


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Had an interesting conversation with a client last week about eye resolution. He's a sharp guy, knew a lot about everything.

He claimed that we have cones and rods in our eye that equal to 1080p resolution at 1.6 X the width of the screen. (I think I have the numbers right!). He further claimed that unless we're sitting really close to the screen, a 4K image does nothing to enhance the viewing experience. (better color spectrum not withstanding).

When 4K came out, lots of people said it was to get rid of the pixellation of 1080p digital projectors, so I am curious, is the above statement mostly correct, or flawed?
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barclay66



Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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Location: Germany

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally correct. Step back more than ten feet from two equally sized 4k and FullHD screens and You won’t be able to distinguish them. On the other hand, contrast and color space improvements will be visible clearly...

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10624
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to this article and spreadsheet, with 20/20 vision you don't have enough visual resolution to distinguish 4k pixels unless you sit closer than about 0.9x.

The same spreadsheet says you can't see 1080p resolution farther than about 1.8x, so adjust to your experience and eyesight.

Most consumers sit at 2-4x or farther from their TVs, so 4k resolution is kinda silly for them.
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JayAllan



Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Posts: 175
Location: Los Angeles


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is interesting info and I buy onto it. For me ideally a 130 inch screen and about 15 feet back is ideal for watching movies in a dedicated room.
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Zolzar



Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 250



PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just watched this video last week. Hits on what you mentioned Curt and lots of other things to take into consideration. I found this to be very informative. No reason other that contrast and color to bump up into the 4K game.

https://youtu.be/VxNBiAV4UnM
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10624
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JayAllan wrote:
This is interesting info and I buy onto it. For me ideally a 130 inch screen and about 15 feet back is ideal for watching movies in a dedicated room.

130" diagonal = 113.3" wide. 15' = 180". So you're sitting at 180/113.3 = 1.59x.

I sit at about 1.1-1.2x but my eyesight isn't 20/20. I like the big image and I don't see any pixel artifacts at that distance, except maybe white-on-black credits, things like that.
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10624
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This article has a great chart that expresses the distance/size/resolution question pretty succinctly:



It says for a 100" (diagonal) screen you won't see any (resolution) benefits of 4k unless you sit closer than about 11', and you won't see 1080p benefits unless you're closer than about 17'. 100" diagonal = 87" wide, so to see 1080p benefits you need to be closer than about 17'/87" = 2.34x.

The same guy has a spreadsheet that calculates distance, lumens, etc. It says for 1080p on a 100" diagonal / 87" wide screen and 20/20 vision, the ideal distance is 13' = 1.80x. "Any farther and you would not be able to see the full resolution; any closer and you would start to need a higher resolution." For 4k it says the ideal distance is 6.5' = 0.9x.
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1131



PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garyfritz wrote:
This article has a great chart that expresses the distance/size/resolution question pretty succinctly:



It says for a 100" (diagonal) screen you won't see any (resolution) benefits of 4k unless you sit closer than about 11', and you won't see 1080p benefits unless you're closer than about 17'. 100" diagonal = 87" wide, so to see 1080p benefits you need to be closer than about 17'/87" = 2.34x.

The same guy has a spreadsheet that calculates distance, lumens, etc. It says for 1080p on a 100" diagonal / 87" wide screen and 20/20 vision, the ideal distance is 13' = 1.80x. "Any farther and you would not be able to see the full resolution; any closer and you would start to need a higher resolution." For 4k it says the ideal distance is 6.5' = 0.9x.


All of this is why I'm not in any rush to 4K. I sit about 9-9.5' away from my 87" wide screen and unless I replace my screen with something that is 130"+ there won't be enough of an improvement to warrant the change. My back row is approx. 14' and it definitely masks the issues with lower quality 1080p transfers.

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL, I have been trying to tell people all of this for almost two decades yet they will buy into marketing anyways.
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5358
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Went with a customer of mine today to Best Buy's Magnolia Room, and was very impressed with the $35,000 sound system they had at the entrance. Martin Logan, Macintosh, etc.

But while there did get to look at a few of their 4K displays, and they turn out to perform just as I had expected. They appear to be twice as colorful, but lacking the ability to bring out clear backgrounds, when the higher resolution should make this a big plus. I also remember reading somewhere that a particular older model JVC projector, had become more sort after. Got to only look at the large 4K TV's and did not get to check out projected 4K from the ceiling mounted units. The size ranged from about 55" to 60" and was not cheap or inexpensive units.

4K seems to be taking things backwards once you get around the punchier colors that appears as over saturation. Just could not see or discern any improvements due from the higher or 4X the resolution.

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deronmoped



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At CES this year, me and my buddy got to view images from 4K PJ's. The one thing that was noticeable was how detailed the long distant shots were. I remember one where you could make out the details of cars, whereas you would not be able to with a lower resolution image. I though it was pretty cool, but kinda useless, when it comes to movies. Actually, I think of it as more of a distraction. I mean, do not producers of movies, set the "focus", on the subject, to focus your attention, set the mood... They do not want other parts of the image to take away from what the subject is.
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AnalogRocks
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Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deronmoped wrote:
At CES this year, me and my buddy got to view images from 4K PJ's. The one thing that was noticeable was how detailed the long distant shots were. I remember one where you could make out the details of cars, whereas you would not be able to with a lower resolution image. I though it was pretty cool, but kinda useless, when it comes to movies. Actually, I think of it as more of a distraction. I mean, do not producers of movies, set the "focus", on the subject, to focus your attention, set the mood... They do not want other parts of the image to take away from what the subject is.


Yep depth of field.

The first time I noticed this was on the James Bond Dr. No bluray. They did an astounding job on that restoration. zI remember watching the back ground in most of the shots.

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ask4me2



Joined: 07 Jul 2017
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

deronmoped wrote:
At CES this year, me and my buddy got to view images from 4K PJ's. The one thing that was noticeable was how detailed the long distant shots were. I remember one where you could make out the details of cars, whereas you would not be able to with a lower resolution image. I though it was pretty cool, but kinda useless, when it comes to movies. Actually, I think of it as more of a distraction. I mean, do not producers of movies, set the "focus", on the subject, to focus your attention, set the mood... They do not want other parts of the image to take away from what the subject is.


A 4K TV or projector will only show the details that is in razor sharp focus and may even enhance these creative narrow DOF effects. I do not see any problems with 4K equipment other than it is more transparent and need better source material and closer viewing distance to show its full potential.
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deronmoped



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I watched the 4K version of "The Matrix" the other night. The only thing different I noticed was, Laurence Fishburne's face, not a pretty image. Beyond that, the added resolution did nothing for the movie.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2647
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

deronmoped wrote:
I watched the 4K version of "The Matrix" the other night. The only thing different I noticed was, Laurence Fishburne's face, not a pretty image. Beyond that, the added resolution did nothing for the movie.


It is not honest to expect much from a movie that heavily relies on 20 year old CGI. Now if it would have been shot in 70mm I would say otherwise...

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deronmoped



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
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Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's funny that you say if it was in 70MM, that's because there seemed to be a ton of film like artifacts (film grain) noticeable. I don't know what could of caused that, added grain (in the original print) to try to reproduce a film-like image or a by product of the process to get it to 4K?
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deronmoped



Joined: 03 Nov 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: San Diego


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I took a look at the technical specifications and it was shot in 35MM film, I assumed it was video. So it looks like processing the film into a 4K version really enhanced the film grain.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
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Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is also known as dithering, that is mosty used to mask digital artifacts or blocking by means of adding noise to the picture that tricks our brain.
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Oneill



Joined: 14 Feb 2019
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no idea dithering was a thing. Is it widely used?
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 10624
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very, and for a long time. I worked on a graphics system (PLATO) back in the 1970's. It had a 512x512 display (the very first networked graphic display system, as far as I know) but it was either on or off. No grayscale. I remember somebody wrote a program to display grayscale images on the PLATO screen, probably 1974 or so. That was my first exposure to dithering.

Basically they broke the monochrome image into 4x4 "superpixels," and then displayed between 0 and 15 pixels based on the brightness in that area, like this:

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