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How to add an Isolation Transformer to AV system.Thanks Bob!
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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WI know you want the ups for the fans to keep running but why do you need the furmans, you have the Iso now. It's not needed.

Nashou

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does it muddy the waters?


Yes. It would probably be easier for me to just tell you what I would do if I had your hardware, and also try to explain why I would do it that way.

I understand why you want to use a UPS sytem. You want to make sure the cooling fan in your projector runs after turnoff, and you want to not have a scrambled mess with your DVR, cable box or satellite receiver, etc., etc. if you have a power failure.
By their very nature, UPS systems are electrical noise makers, especially large ones like you have. I would dare say that each of them create more back EMF noise than any other component you have. Also, UPS systems (except the cheap relay operated ones) supply power that is totally isolated from the input power. The input power is rectified to DC and then inverted through a necessarily noisy process to create 60 Hz AC. The input and output are so isolated that you can unplug the input and it will work just the same. It is also recognized as a "separately derived source". So - Why would we waste the use of your isolation transformer and subject it to noise? From an isolation standpoint, it is redundant. Answer - Just plug in your UPS's to your normal house outlets. It also might be interesting to see what happens to your strange voltage readings?!

Now you still have a big iso xfmr and Mr. Furman. I would configure the secondaries of your iso in parallel so that you cut the internal impedance in half. I would then create at least two 120 v isolated circuits from this. One of these circuits should feed Mr. Furman. The other should feed only power amps. I am assuming you have at least a sub-woofer amp and an audio receiver and/or a preamp/processor with power amps. These are the only devices that really ever consume much power besides your projector.

Mr. Furman should be used for low power analog or digital devices if you feel more comfortable with any filtering/noise reduction they might help with. I would include a pre/pro here if you are using one. Mr. Furman is used strictly for noise isolation if anything.

I recommend not using Mr. Furman on your power amps, because it does NOT increase peak current capability, it decreases it. Their product description says it is capable of peak currents of 60 amps or so. Your wall outlet is capable of a few thousand amps (until the breaker trips!). Just as there is no free lunch, there is no perpetual motion machine. Mr.Furman has an impedance!

I don't know why you would be concerned about your power factor. As long as you are living in a house or apartment, you are not paying any penalty for a pf under 1.0. Power factor is the cosine of the angle between the voltage and the current. If the angle is zero, the pf is one. The "can" you described is probably an oil filled capacitor which adds capacitive reactance to the load. How can Mr. Furman know if your load is resistive, capacitive, or inductive to make any "corrections"? It can't!

Hope this helps.


Bob
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

OK. I plan to bridge the two IsoT secondaries for the measurements. Presently, the secondaries are NOT bridged and are essentially separate circuits all the way from the IsoT --> AV setup. We had talked about that this option providing essentially TWO IsoT with the secondaries unbridged, so that's what I did. I'm not sure I understand fully the lowering the impedance by connecting them option other than they can supply 2x the power together rather than separate. However.. read on for a method to my madness.

I think when I find my clamp on, some of this load info will help.

In my setup I have twin 7 channel high wattage amps along with a sub and an infrasonic amp - hence the twin circuits. I have 1 Power AMP and the Sub AMP connected to 1 circuit and 1 Power AMP and Infrasonic Sub connected to other circuit via the twin Furman's in their special "Furman AMP" sockets.

The main power, sub and infrasonic sub AMPS are only plugged into the Furman's AMP non-current limited outlets which do NOT freed thru the Torid. These AMP only outlets do have the "special magic" capacitor to provide that "extra juice" to the AMPs. This is where the Furman's power factor correction (that special tub cap) comes into play. I've opened the Furman's and taken a closer look at the circuitry and confirmed that's the way it is setup.. which is exactly what the Furman engineer told me was the case. .. so these outlets are essentially connected directly to the wall feeds.

The remaining AV components are dispersed across the "Torid Isolated" outlet outlets where each outlet pair is on a SEPARATE TAP from the Furman's Torid! This arrangement (rather than a single Torid Tap) provides additional isolation from each other in each socket pair. For instance, I have my AV Pre-AMP in one outlet pair and the the DVD player in another outlet pair, the cable box in yet another pair, the DLP in another, the cooling setup in another, ... These Torid connected outlets are current limited to like 5A from each tap but will NEVER draw that.

Yes on the UPS noise. I agree 1000% and hence the Furman's are after them. There is a trend in the industry to provide crazy people like me with AV Grade UPSes in pretty cases which are basically UPSes with extreme filtering for the noise at extreme pricing points - far beyond what I'm willing to expend as the price of those 20A units are eye-popping. I'm using the Furman's for that for now since I have them in hand.

Does this help?

You probably think I've lost my marbles w/ the noise and with this design. However, I've been building this AV system for 10+ years picking the the equipment here and there. With the IsoT, I'm nearing the final design step by adding the IsoT. After this, I'm done for a while. (or at least my significant other hopes so, she's tired of the tinkering...).

Later, Vincent
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not sure I understand fully the lowering the impedance by connecting them option other than they can supply 2x the power together rather than separate.


To simplify matters, lets just assume that all your loads are purely resistive instead of complex. Therefore we can replace the word impedance with resistance. Each of your two separate identical secondary windings has an internal resistance. When the two identical windings are put in parallel, the sum of the two resistances is exactly 1/2 of each one separately. Therefore, the voltage drop that occurs during peak demand is 1/2 when they are in parallel in comparison to separately.

What does this do for you? It looks like you have 16 channels of audio amplifiers. Audio amplifiers consume by far the most power of your components. During peak times (load explosion, etc. in a movie) with the volume cranked up, there is a huge current demand from your amps. This peak current causes a voltage drop through the internal resistance of the transformer (and elsewhere!). The output stage of your power amps are the only power supply in all of your equipment that is not regulated. That means that the DC voltage rails on your amplifier will drop in voltage by the same percentage that the input power does. The other devices you have are relatively unaffected as they are fully regulated.


Quote:
In my setup I have twin 7 channel high wattage amps along with a sub and an infrasonic amp - hence the twin circuits.


In this case, I would set up at least three separate 20 amp circuits from the paralleled iso output. One each for the 7-channel amps and one of the sub amps in each one. The third circuit is for Mr. Furman.


Quote:
These AMP only outlets do have the "special magic" capacitor to provide that "extra juice" to the AMPs


If there was a special magic extra juice available, GM would install them in their Chevy Volt and throw away the batteries.
The cap is an off-the-shelf cap of relatively small value. It has to be small as it cannot be an electrolytic due to the AC. If it did anything at all, don't you think there would be one at the input of every amp? If you can read the value, I can calculate the maximum stored energy which will be insignificant at best. 1% attempted PF correction for some unknown reason, and 99% advertising hype.


Quote:
Yes on the UPS noise. I agree 1000% and hence the Furman's are after them


Actually, I was talking about the back EMF that they generate. That means they are putting noise onto whatever circuit they are powered from. One of the two reasons I didn't want them to be powered from the iso transformers.


Bob
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

Thanks for explanation. The two secondaries are now bonded at the IsoT.

I've been watching the voltages and they tend to increase into the 132/133V ranges during the day and drop down to 120/125 during the evening hours.

So I'm thinking that what I'm seeing and never really noticed before is "normal" voltage fluctuations in the power grid due to whatever the utility is doing to vary plants on/offline to meet demand.

I've been unable to locate my clamp-on meter as the last person to borrow it must not have returned it, so it looks like I'll have to buy a new one.....

The "reserve power" is sealed inside a opaque 12" or longer tube that's gotta be 2" in diameter from memory. I'll try to post a photo if I have one or can get one in the next few weeks if I open the unit again. It's a real pain b/c it weighs about 90 lbs and once installed in the bottom of the setup, it is difficult to remove it and everything above it. There's no way to read or see what ever is inside w/o destroying it is my guess.

What's the 2nd reason you'd not power the UPS from the IsoT beside the back EMF?

Thanks, Vincent
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What's the 2nd reason you'd not power the UPS from the IsoT beside the back EMF?


Your UPS systems by there very nature are already totally isolated from your normal service power, so feeding them from your iso transformer adds absolutely nothing but, especially since they are rather large loads, wastes usable capacity of your iso transformer.



Quote:
I've been watching the voltages and they tend to increase into the 132/133V ranges during the day and drop down to 120/125 during the evening hours.

So I'm thinking that what I'm seeing and never really noticed before is "normal" voltage fluctuations in the power grid due to whatever the utility is doing to vary plants on/offline to meet demand.




This is different than what you previously said. The secondary voltages you read before, despite a stable primary voltage, fluctuated seemingly inversely proportional to the secondary load connected.

If your primary voltage utility company) is also fluctuating in tandem with the secondary (which makes more sense), then you need to have your utility company install a recording voltmeter at your main panel because this large a swing should not be normal. Especially if your voltage is substantially lower at night when the utility load is much smaller. Seems backwards to me.


Bob
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

I'm still seeing the voltage increases into the 130/133 during the daytime and drop down at night to 120/125 range.

I also wonder if there is some interaction occurring between the large IsoT --> Furman IT (Balanced Power) on the final end of that chain. For kicks, each of the IT References is pulling about 11.6 A from the IsoT from my recent measurements.

I've not had time to do much more but I did take those photos of the insides of the Furman IT showing the "Power Factor" tube we discussed.

See the first photo of the first 1-20 photos below: The large sandy looking tube is the PF tube.

https://picasaweb.google.com/103727542964700646227/20120201FurmanITReference20?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCL_n0s79-rXa6AE&feat=directlink

I'll keep working on this one. Later.
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm still seeing the voltage increases into the 130/133 during the daytime and drop down at night to 120/125 range.


This tells us nothing unless we know What the primary voltage is at the same time these two readings were taken. Please take these readings and make sure your load doesn't change at these two times.


Quote:
I've not had time to do much more but I did take those photos of the insides of the Furman IT showing the "Power Factor" tube we discussed.


As I have explained before it is nothing but a capacitor sized so that its capacitive reactance is equal to the inductive reactance of the UPS. This will result in a PF of 1.0, which does absolutely nothing for you. It is 100% pure snake oil hype!


Quote:
For kicks, each of the IT References is pulling about 11.6 A from the IsoT from my recent measurements.


That means that you are wasting about 2.75 KVA of capacity from your iso xfmr for absolutely nothing.



Bob
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would also take readings on an outlet that is not fed from the Iso Xfer system at the same time frame to see if it is in fact a supplier issue.

Athanasios

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"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
I would also take readings on an outlet that is not fed from the Iso Xfer system at the same time frame to see if it is in fact a supplier issue.

Athanasios


Good Idea.

Do you guys have a recommendation for an affordable voltage data logger? The fluke ones I found are pricey and no one I know has a meter that sophisticated I can borrow.

I have the UPS data logs which are downstream so maybe I only have to deal with the 240V input side of the IsoT and a regular outlet.

I can say when I turn off the loads on the IsoT, which means turning off the Furmans, I see the reported voltages drop from 133/130 -> 125/122. Which is why I asked if there could be some "transformer" interaction between the IsoT and Big Torid in the Furmans we are not accounting for?

I'll look around for a used 240V UPS which would have a communications / data logger - just to test with. I can probably pick one of those up for quite a bit less than those flukes unless you guys have better ideas to see the voltages over time.

Thanks.
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I can say when I turn off the loads on the IsoT, which means turning off the Furmans, I see the reported voltages drop from 133/130 -> 125/122. Which is why I asked if there could be some "transformer" interaction between the IsoT and Big Torid in the Furmans we are not accounting for?


For this discussion, I am going to assume that the primary voltage on the iso xfmr does not change when the secondary does change with changing loads. You still need to confirm this and it can be done without recording equipment.

There are two possible (but highly unlikely) explanations for this: First, if your iso xfmr also had an autoformer fuction which changes the turns ratio, this could happen, but the schematic shows this is not the case.
Second, as we all know, your UPS systems produce a back emf consisting of numerous harmonics. We don't know for sure what the frequency response of your Fluke meter is, but it most likely is high enough to read this noise/garbage which is superimposed on the 60Hz power. In other words, for purposes of power, this reading is extraneous and somewhat meaningless.

Think about it for a minute - Transformers are two way devices. If you change the voltage on one side, you will change the voltage on the other side by the same percentage. If not, then all this energy has to go to heat in losses. We could calculate this loss if we knew the impedance of the xfmr, but it would be enough to get really hot!

I will explain just one more time why you need to put your two UPS's on separate circuit(s) from your main panel box.

The main purpose of an iso xfmr it to totally isolate the power source from ground. For purposes of this discussion, we can assume that this isolation is infinite.
Why do we want this isolation? Because, without it, there can be potential differences between the power ground and the signal ground. This difference is not wanted as it adds noise to the signal. In virtually every device, somewhere in the device, the signal gtround is tied to the power supply ground.

I have also explained that a UPS system by its very nature also totally isolates its utility power source from its output.

So - Why do you subject everything your iso xfmr feeds to all the noise generated by your UPS(s) when there is absolutely no advantage what-so-ever?

You are trying to solve a problem that you are creating!!!


Bob
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your patience. I understand mostly everything in this thread --> The UPSes introduce EMF noise / harmonics / Power Factors ... into the nice clean lines from my IsoT.

My goal is a quite AV setup and I think I have have achieved that but I also want to understand what I'm seeing with the voltages AFTER I installed the IsoT.

I agree, this is a standard Topaz 7.5 kVA .005pF IsoT - nothing special. I was university surplus but in good clean working order.

My setup is a series of compromises. I'm usually in the 80:20 rule but strive for 85-90% camp as I cannot afford, or better still, I value my body parts that would be required to get into that final camp most of the time. My partner's already asked about the electrical work and buzzing thing in the garage on the floor and all the work I was doing in the basement, and what all these boxes are... she does not miss much, especially when she's home and UPS delivers..

Ideally, I would have two IsoT - one for the critical power failure components (DLP, DVRs, ... ) and another for the AV AMPs, Pre-amps etc.. Got it.

I started this journey actually doing that, only with 1 IsoT.. with by separating the dual 3.25kVA IsoT outputs - remember - each feeding a separate 20A circuit? Then if I wanted, I could only use the UPS ONLY the line feeding the DLP projector, DVRs, and the rest can take a power hit. But then you guys said I really needed to bond the windings at the IsoT to balance the loads on the IsoT, make it more efficient, reduce the heat, reduce the impedance, etc.. OK another compromise - made sense, so bonded the windings at the IsoT and now both 20A circuits feed from the bonded point.

Ideally, I'd have a larger UPS feeding --> IsoT --> AV but because of physical locations of these items, the existing setups, and the cost of a single UPS big enough to feed a 40A / 240 load, that's not the route I chose. To do that would have required buying a new, large, expensive UPS, pulling new 240V 40A 8 (or 6) Ga Cu feed 80+ feet from the garage to the AV Utility room to run the 7.5 kVA IsoT. That's not an easy task either with that cable and my sealed crawlspace. Since I had 2 existing 20A drops from the garage panels into the AV Utility room, and I had the UPSes already on hand, I opted to use what I had and locate the IsoT in the garage to isolate it's physical noise (humming) as well and use my two existing 12 Ga / 20A drops. If I'd put the IsoT in the AV Utility room, I would have had to sound proof the room to avoid hearing it's hum upstairs and listen to the buzzing complaints.. as these can be / are quite noisy from the 60Hz resonance.

Today, the IsoT is located in the garage which is about 80' from the AV / utility room in the basement.

My current UPSes are "Line Interactive Sine-Wave UPS." These are not double-conversion UPSes. Double Conversion UPSes are ideal for isolation but they waste a lot of energy, eat a lot of watts even at 80+% efficient, and can spin a utility meter into an eye popping utility bill. So I chose to use my existing APC SU3000RM. I've read about people using the infamous "PowerPlants" but those are way out of my price league, so I compromise with smaller units. With these UPSes unless there is a main feed power disturbance, blip, etc.. they basically feed out what they get in. The only time they step in otherwise is during low or high voltage conditions. They will boost / buck the voltages if necessary which is NOT my case as I have these beyond the trigger point of what I'm seeing. I cannot tell you if they introduce loads of EMF on the lines even when they are not actually UPSing... but in all likelihood, since these are APC and are not SurgeX or Furman models designed specifically for quiet AV, I'm 100% sure they probably do but I'm not sure how to even measure that. My compromise was I needed viable cost effective true sine-wave models to cover my AV setup, my DLP and DVRs, which I had on hand, w/o paying $2K for them.

So I have to live w/ the setup. Now I am trying to understand what and why I'm seeing what I'm seeing and you guys have been a great help! I hope we are able to get to the bottom of this one as it seems it is going to be an educational experience.

So what I think I need to measure is below. I do not have a nicer fluke meter (yet) I have an older RShack digital bench meter I've have for a while. It does not measure True RMS etc.. However, based on what I'm reading, it may be time to find a True RMS meter. So if you think it is necessary, I can look around and find something from HD or Lowes in the next couple of days to measure True RMS.

Because of the way I have the feeds in the basement, I can bypass / remove the UPSes from the AV circuit and connect the Furmans directly to the IsoT feeds in the utility room. What I cannot do is easily remove the Furmans from the load picture (other than cut them off) as they are in the bottom of the cabinets and are the MAIN power distribution units for the multiple AV cabinets - everything plugs into them at some point and it takes several hours to remove everything above to get at them etc..

Let me know if what I have below will help. This will remove the UPS from the picture and take these measurements...

Code:
Connections                IsoTINPutVolts     IsoTOutputVolts   UPS Volts   FurmanOutputVolts    FurmanOutputA (if can get)   Furman State (off/on)

   
IsoT --> UPS(s) --> Furman                                                             ON

IsoT --> UPS(s) --> Furman                                                             OFF

IsoT --> Furman (no UPS inline)                                                            ON

IsoT --> Furman (no UPS inline)                                                            OFF

120V Outlet in garage near Panels                            



Anything else in the table? Sorry, the table sux, the Off/On should be in the far right. I don't know how to make it look better.

Thanks


Last edited by gattaca on Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:30 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I chose to use my existing APC Standby SU3000RM.


I went to APC's website to view this model and, while it doesn't exactly state how it operates, in order to meet it's specifications, it has to be a full rectifier/inverter setup. In other words, regardless whether or not it is plugged in, it supplies power from its inverter at all times.
There are a couple ways to confirm this: If you have access to an O-scope, just view the output voltage as you unplug it. If you see nothing at all, it is a full rectifier/inverter. Also, and even easier, if it produces any heat when it is running on utility power - same thing.


Quote:
I opted to use what I had and locate the IsoT in the garage to isolate it's physical noise (humming)



It should not be that load. Mine is over 60 years old and been on for probably 59 years and I have to put my ear next to it to hear it.
Try this - Disconnect your UPS's from your xfmr and let me know if it gets quieter. Also, how warm is it in comparison to the ambient temperature?


Bob
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob,

Yes, the SU3000RMs produces a little warm. The internal fans will spin up periodically even when its not UPSing and they will spin up for sure if the power fails.

Spec says "Online Thermal Dissipation 375.00 BTU/hr"

These are considered line-interactive models > http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNM3Y_R7_EN.pdf

Also see PF, CF etc.. -> http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/SADE-5TNQYL_R1_EN.pdf

But the above is really having no impact when I remove the UPSes from the circuits.

Another interesting white paper -> http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/NRAN-7NB2FG_R0_EN.pdf

Re the IsoT. Unloaded, nothing is on at all, breakers OFF, it has a very slight hum and is only slightly warm. Under load with both Furman's ON which I think is about a 23+A load, then the IsoT grows to a louder hum and warmer... but it's not too hot to touch or uncomfortable. I'll get some better thermal measurements on the surface later. Yes, if I turn on just 1 of the Furmans from both off, the IsoT gets louder and when the 2nd Furman goes on, it gets louder still. However the 23+A load is well below the 62.5 A max rating.. of the 7.5kVA.

For kicks, while the wife is not home, I removed the UPSes from the circuit totally and then just connected the feeds going upstairs for the Furmans directly to the IsoT circuit and the voltage readings increased just like they did when the UPSes were inline. A couple of quick readings show the voltages on both circuits increase from 124/125 --> 131/133 as soon as both Furmans are powered on. I'll have to play tomorrow with trying to outfit the table as the wife gets mad when I'm taking the main screens up/down.

What's interesting is that when I power on each Furman separately, the voltage increases 2-3 V for each Furman. So Furman 1 on -> 127/128, Furman 2 on -> 130/131... Furman 3 on -> 133/134. Yes I have 4 Furmans and was able to pull 1 more longer power cord over to it so I could connect it to the IsoT circuits just to see what happens. I did not leave it connected very long since that would be about 20A on that circuit. Normally, there are only 2 Furmans, one connected to each of the 20A circuits for this AV setup.

BTW, On the Furmans NOT connected to the IsoT, I also see a 1-2V increase in those circuits when they are powered on. But they start out lower at 120/121 volts as they directly from the utility power.

So loaded w/ ~ 23A of Furman Inductive Torids, the voltages on both circuits increase from 123/125 - 131/133. So that's why I'm wondering if there is some interaction between the IsoT --> Furman Torids we are not accounting for or if it is just the increased 23A+ load which I thought normally would make the voltages drop.... so these guys have got to be interacting in some way.. ?

By chance do you know what sort of AMP loads are on your IsoT?

I'll work on the chart tomorrow / this weekend.

Later. Thanks
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yes, the SU3000RMs produces a little warm. The internal fans will spin up periodically even when its not UPSing and they will spin up for sure if the power fails.


Your UPS's are ALWAYS UPSing! The only difference in operation between normal operation from your utility company and battery operation during a power failure is the source of energy. It is ALWAYS creating its own power and totally isolated from your utility company. It is a nice UPS system.


Quote:
So loaded w/ ~ 23A of Furman Inductive Torids


That's a pretty large load! You must have everything operating and the volume cranked up?

Don't forget to take reading of the primary voltage also when you measure.


Quote:
By chance do you know what sort of AMP loads are on your IsoT?


Never measured it, but probably about 30 peak when I'm really cranking.



Bob
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, could you send me the URL to your Topaz unit?

Bob
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:
BTW, could you send me the URL to your Topaz unit?

Bob


91007-31

http://www.pacificparts.com/vends/mge/images/t1.pdf

I do not have the manual but found a related manual online for a similar unit.. Topaz 100

http://sysdoc.doors.ch/MGE/t100manu.pdf

I was never able to find an exact user's manual online for these older Topaz/MGE models.
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:

Also, how warm is it in comparison to the ambient temperature? Bob


Hi Bob, Thermals..

Surface Temp Top ~ 125 F (no fans)
Ambient Air Temp ~ 68 F
Load 23-25A

As expected, the IsoT runs substantially cooler (just warm and quieter) with 0 load.

Thanks
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gattaca



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 20



PostLink    Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Bob and Team:

I've been too buried to follow up on IsoT thread until now.

After having been frustrated in explaining the crazy voltages as we discussed between with my IsoT and ITRefs - with the supply side voltage to the IsoT increasing ~ 3 volts each time I connect another Furman IT-Reference to the IsoT's output, I contacted Furman seeking answers.

The guys at Furman solved the mystery. What I am seeing is the Power Factor Correction (PFC) circuit in the IT-Refs. The PFC is contained in the big long mystery can we discussed earlier which you theorize is probably full of capacitors..

Q: Upon further investigation, the IsoT is delivering ~ 125/126V from its ~ 244/245V input from my main AC panels in the garage. So its output (NON TRUE RMS) voltage is a bit over the 122/123 expected based on its input... However, after about 1 month of tinkering, I've learned there must be some interaction between the ITR20 and the IsoT. You see, when each ITR20s is switched ON, the voltage on the lines feeding them (from the SPR-20) increases ~ 3V for EACH ITR20 switched ON. So I see a jump from 126 -> 128/129V with 1 ITR20 ON (12A) and another jump from 128/129V -> 131/133V with the 2nd ITF20 ON (11.5A). The total load is ~ 23A...

A: Itís the power factor affecting the voltage reading (itís such a large reactive load, it fools the meter which is not true RMS

Q: What's stranger is when the AV setup is on, I see a voltage reading of 123/125 on the output side of the ITR20 units and when the AV setup is OFF, I see a voltage of 130/133V on the same OUTPUT side all while seeing the 131/133 consistently on the input side of the ITRef 20 units.

A: Your meter canít measure it properly at the input due to the massive AC capacitance load in the PF circuit. The output of the ITR20 is correct. The transformer compensates for load loss by raising the voltage slightly for light loads, thus; the voltage will go down under heavy load, and raise under a light load (though not to the degree youíre measuring)!

So at this point, I'll keep an eye on the IsoT temps b/c 23A is a good load and the next time I'm working in my panels, I might just bypass the IsoT temporarily and then remeasure.

I think this answers a lot of the head scratching and questions we posted earlier.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Happy New years guys!!!!

I added the Pictures back up in this thread !!

Nashou

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