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Astigmatism Adjustment - issue with flare on green only

 
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barco_75




Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 169
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:47 pm    Post subject: Astigmatism Adjustment - issue with flare on green only Reply with quote


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I am trying to adjust my astig on my recent BARCO Graphics 808---> 808s conversion. I now have fresh sony tubes and the matching amps and the picture is much better. I was able to get the red and blue astig adjusted with a perfect round donut with equal flare at max electronic focus and it squeezed to a small dot with nice flare equal on all sides with minimum focus. With tape, I marked a fixed location on the projector surface and the dot moves just a little maybe 5 mm.

I might of spent maybe a total of four hours on red and blue. The green in the other hand has not been so easy. I've spent about 15 hours on the green and perfect focus alludes me as I have a distinct flair issue. I get an "A" for effort, and an "F" for results. I am using the genlocked Barco patterns because none of my test disks (AVHCD or Avia II) has a dot on them that you can see the astig adjustments. The genlocked pattern is 1080i or p at 60 hz (don't recall exact setting).

Since photos are better than words, I've included a few. It is hard to get a photograph to match the exact conditions but I tried my best. Included are photos of the Red for reference which in my opinion is about perfect.

The photos are arranged in the order which corresponds to the digital astig focusing (1 being lowest focus setting and the highest number being the highest focus). The middle number photos (see file name) are roughly when the "shadow" starts collapsing on the solid line.

At max focus on the green (Photo G4), My donut is generally round but pinched on two opposing sides of the donut at 45 degrees and 225 degrees (if the donut is 360 degrees around and starting to measure degrees clockwise). Trouble is that I have a distant flare going towards the upper left at 315 degrees. It is kind of hard to tell from the photo but you can kind of distinguish the flare outside of the donut at the upper left. The flair is much worse in person as the photography can't pick up the flair very well. The vertical lines (of the genlocked grid) have a distinct flare to the left which is very clear in the photo. The horizontal line looks ok.

When I go to minimum focus (photo G1) I can get a nice Dot but the flare is not equal 360 degrees around it. It looks similar to the pattern made with the arms of a person to make a snow angel with the dot where the persons back would be (see photo G1). I can rotate the angle of the snow angel but can't get a nice 360 degree flare. The flare on the vertical and horizontal lines look equally spaced, however. The vertical and horizontal lines are not the same width. I'm assuming the barco pattern vertical lines are roughly double the width of the horizontal?

Any tips? I believe the flare should collapse to the solid bright line to the vertical and horizontal at exact same time if
everything is right and generally I get this but once I ramp up past perfect focus I start getting flare on the left side of the
vertical line. Ironically, the dot is perfectly stable and doesn't move at all, not even a millimeter.

I thought maybe the CPC magnets were the cause of the trouble and I switched them out. It didn't help. I switched the amp and the ovalness of the donut has changed shape. I have not attempted to adjust the astigmatism since switching the amp to see if it helps.



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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pull it down and put up an NEC. Never worry about such issues again.
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Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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barco_75




Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 169
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'll have to consider that next time!
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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, i very strongly suggest that!!
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Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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barco_75




Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 169
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bump!!
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barclay66




Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1291
Location: Germany

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I think, You need to adjust the mechanical part first. Set every electronical stigmator adjustment for green to mid-position. Then adjust the CPC magnets on the green tube for the best result at the center of the image. Finally, optimize the green astig electronically.
If the mechanical part fails, You could have weakened CPC magnets or a bad tube. If the electronical part fails, You could have a defect on the green channel of the stigmation driver and/or amplifier...

Regards,
barclay66
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barco_75




Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 169
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've spent countless hours adjusting the CPC magnets but you suggesting I try a different procedure as described? I had no issue adjusting the blue and red using the typical procedure by ramping the focus up and down. I switched out the CPC magnets already and had the same result as before so I don't think it is the CPC magnets unless I have two bad sets. I switched out the amplifier which attaches to the neck of the tube and the ovalness of the "donut" did change. Is this an indication that the amp could be bad? I didn't know if different amps would change the shape of the "donut" regardless so I didn't attempt to make any CPC magnet adjustment because it was as good as I could get it. Also, what card is the stigmatism driver located?
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barclay66




Joined: 27 Jun 2011
Posts: 1291
Location: Germany

TV/Projector: Marquee 9500 Ultra


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I'm not too familiar with the BG808s design and as You have created some kind of hybrid, it could be different too. But to my knowledge, everything related to focus, convergence and stigmators should be located at the big drawer section that can be pulled out under the tubes.
I'm not quit sure if it's safe to use the PJ with the drawer being pulled out, but it would give You the opportunity to check if the mechanical settings have similar effects on all three tubes. If this would be the case, You could rule out bad magnets and tubes.
Then You could concentrate on the drawer boards and try swapping them with known working ones.
One thing: Where and how did You switch the amps?
Another thing: I think I did read once about the green tube's coils and/or magnets being either different to the red/blue ones. Or it could be that the mounting was a bit different (focus & convergence coils being turned to a different angle). The reason would be that the green system would be influenced as it's sitting in the middle of the two other tubes.
Maybe someone with more insight can chime in or someone with a similar machine can make some photos of an original set...

Regards,
barclay66
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this projector have a 6-pole magnet either mechanical or electrical? your snow angel description makes me think that a 6-pole adjustment would help.

Also, in your first pic of the red tube the 2-pole adjustment is WAY out. Did you fix that is you progressed?

Usually the red is the easiest to adjust followed closely by green. Blue is typically more difficult to adjust because the human eye does not see blue resolution much at all and back at the projector for mechanical this can be difficult.

Best of luck,
craigr

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mechanically there is only 4 pole CPCs on there from the factory, even the 909 only has 4, so i doubt the 808 will have 6.

Have you got the magnets around the right way?

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Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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barco_75




Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 169
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so I started to tinker with this again after getting sidetracked on my other "fun" projects (well maybe not fun).

Barclay, the 808s does have different focus yolks KF-3205G for the Green tube and those are installed. I have 4 pole CPC and that is what is on the 808 series.

Hi Craig, how are you? This is Steve, you came to my loft about a year ago in North Center to test the emissions with your Sencore CR7000 on my 808s tubes. I'm not sure if the Sencore would tell me if I had bad tubes, but the emissions on them was fine. I put the best green I had in the machine.

Craig, in regards to you saying the 2 pole is way out on the first red photo can you explain what i should be looking for? This photo is with the midpoint focus on 0 and Contrast Max and Brightness set to Min. The midpoint focus would be adjusted to 50 or so ideally once I finalize the focus. I thought the Red adjustment was pretty good (around 50 setting), but of course I'm a novice and maybe I don't understand what I should be doing. I used the Barco tech sheet for replacing a tube, Guy Kuo tips, Galen (zGman) tips, and Graham Johnsons guide. I've done a lot of studying, but this is my first attempt at adjusting the CPC magnets.

Craig, the CPC magnets are mechanical (I'm not aware of an electronic version so maybe I misunderstand your comment). The focus is mechanical and electrically corrected.

I've done some additional testing and this is what know:
1) I switched out the amp and I have the same issue. I did adjust the magnets again, and I was able to replicate the same pattern which appeared with the old amp.
2) I switched out the CPC magnets. It didn't change anything.
3) The tubes was tested with the Sencore CR7000, so I assume the tube is good?

So based on the suggestions provided it seams like I should either try a 6 pole magnet or check the astigmatism board. What do you think? Is it possible to hook up the astig board red or blue channels to the green and test to see if the green section of the astig board is bad?
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barco_75




Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 169
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thought...I removed the Convergence on Green card and noticed the instructions under Kurt's download section may have an error. Two cables are flipped at least in my opinion. J807 goes to J8 and J808 goes to J7. The only reason, I bring this up is in the case I'm wrong. Barclays comment about the special magnetics on the green made me think if I somehow switched something in the upper astig/convergence tray by accident it could throw something off on the green.
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barco_75




Joined: 14 Jan 2009
Posts: 169
Location: Chicago


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Help, anyone?

I think I might of found the problem? I took apart one of the astig rings which I tried previously and didn't help. I have a different set mounted on the tube. The rings have the number 2 and 4 on them. The number 4 rings are at the rear (closest to the tube pins), then a center set of number 2 rings which are used as a spacer and fixed in the neutral position. The front rings have a number 2 on them.

So, it appears someone took the astig rings apart and switched the 2 pole and the 4 pole? I assume that is what the markings are labeled for?

I check another set of astig rings and it had the "4" ring in the 2 pole location. Only problem with this theory is I pulled another set of astig rings and it had a "1" ring in the 2 pole location? Maybe the last set of astig rings are an older design?



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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24296
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's possible, I've also had a rare astig magnet lose its magnetism. Took me hours to figure it out, as I thought it was a bad tube or a bad astig circuit..
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Pokemon640




Joined: 28 Jul 2015
Posts: 49
Location: Greece


PostLink    Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have the same "issue", but i think it's Barco's internal pattern generator fault. Did you try any external pattern from your PC/laptop ? Eizo monitor tester is a great tool with lot's of helpful patterns to test. At my case, the "problem" persists even if i try Eizo software.
I will make some more tests, once i got more spare boards.

Curt, i have sent mail, i will purchase some h-boards for my unit and i'm looking to repair my old cards. I have no knowledge about electronic repair. So make me an offer about it. Thumbs Up
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