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G90 "Not applicable" when selecting input A?
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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The Dallas chip contains a Li-ion battery which provides current to store the data that resides on the memory, should the power be cut, pj turned off etc. The approx lifetime for the battery is 10 years. The effects of a dying battery are varied and in worse case scenario will cause the scanning electron beam to collapse resulting in spot burn @tube faces. This is what you want to avoid at all costs as the real value in these pj's at this point are the tubes.

In my case I saw sudden shifts in blue convergence by a few cm. Plus I was unable to access the service mode. All odd behavior that's apparently unrelated directly to the stored data on the chip. Craig copied my data to a new chip a few months ago and I haven't had any further issues/weird behavior.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave148 wrote:

Can anyone verify I am choosing the RGBHV inputs correctly?

Dave


I only have HDMI connected so can't help there.
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kal
Forum Administrator


Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 15848
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave148 wrote:
HaydnG90 wrote:
YIKES. Get a new Dallas chip in there stat. That thing is 20 years old and could be causing all sorts of problems to the operation of your G90. I would not turn it on again until you get that sorted.


"not turn it on again": Are you serious? Everything seems to be working except for the choosing input A question.

He's serious.

If the Dallas chip data becomes corrupt, the tubes may instantaneously get struck (ruined) without any warning what so ever and you're left with spot burns and ruined tubes. It will happen before you even know that it has happened and there will be no warning signs.

Search "Dallas Chip" here for more gory details.

Some examples:

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=373615
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26307
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30899
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9611

EDIT: I completely missed the fact that HaydnG90 had pretty much already answered your question. Wink

Kal

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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
The Dallas chip contains a Li-ion battery which provides current to store the data that resides on the memory, should the power be cut, pj turned off etc. The approx lifetime for the battery is 10 years. The effects of a dying battery are varied and in worse case scenario will cause the scanning electron beam to collapse resulting in spot burn @tube faces. This is what you want to avoid at all costs as the real value in these pj's at this point are the tubes.

In my case I saw sudden shifts in blue convergence by a few cm. Plus I was unable to access the service mode. All odd behavior that's apparently unrelated directly to the stored data on the chip. Craig copied my data to a new chip a few months ago and I haven't had any further issues/weird behavior.

Great. What a flaky way to store data. If it can actually result in a no scan situation, then it sounds like it is storing more than this list I made. Can anyone confirm what is stored on the part? I hope the lack of scanning in the case you mentioned was actually caused by something that happened at the same time as bad data on the part, and not by the part itself. Otherwise, just powering down the part for a short time with an old battery would cause it to loose data. I suppose I could send it out with a power supply attached. What a mess.

It sounds like the safest way to address the problem would for me to do something in-house, with no delay.

What is programmed on the parts Curt has available, some basic configuration with default settngs for things like convergence?

I checked my notes, and it looks like I may have purchased a programmer for these parts years ago. I guess I need to find it.

Dave
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
dave148 wrote:

Can anyone verify I am choosing the RGBHV inputs correctly?

Dave


I only have HDMI connected so can't help there.


So your unit doesn't have any BNC jacks for RGB or component, or you just have nothing connected to them?
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave148 wrote:
HaydnG90 wrote:
The Dallas chip contains a Li-ion battery which provides current to store the data that resides on the memory, should the power be cut, pj turned off etc. The approx lifetime for the battery is 10 years. The effects of a dying battery are varied and in worse case scenario will cause the scanning electron beam to collapse resulting in spot burn @tube faces. This is what you want to avoid at all costs as the real value in these pj's at this point are the tubes.

In my case I saw sudden shifts in blue convergence by a few cm. Plus I was unable to access the service mode. All odd behavior that's apparently unrelated directly to the stored data on the chip. Craig copied my data to a new chip a few months ago and I haven't had any further issues/weird behavior.

Great. What a flaky way to store data. If it can actually result in a no scan situation, then it sounds like it is storing more than this list I made. Can anyone confirm what is stored on the part? I hope the lack of scanning in the case you mentioned was actually caused by something that happened at the same time as bad data on the part, and not by the part itself. Otherwise, just powering down the part for a short time with an old battery would cause it to loose data. I suppose I could send it out with a power supply attached. What a mess.

It sounds like the safest way to address the problem would for me to do something in-house, with no delay.

What is programmed on the parts Curt has available, some basic configuration with default settngs for things like convergence?

I checked my notes, and it looks like I may have purchased a programmer for these parts years ago. I guess I need to find it.

Dave


If I was in your shoes I'd get the Dallas chip sent immediately to Craig and have him check and try to copy the stored data. The stock chips are completely virgin. There is no pre-stored data on a new part so hopefully what you have on the current one can be salvaged. If not you're going to need a complete recalibration for convergence, gray scale etc.

Craig will be the best positioned to give you all the technical info. I think there are other chip on the YA board that store certain parameters and these communicate constantly with the Dallas. Installing a virgin Dallas will not prevent you from turning on the G90.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave148 wrote:
HaydnG90 wrote:
dave148 wrote:

Can anyone verify I am choosing the RGBHV inputs correctly?

Dave


I only have HDMI connected so can't help there.


So your unit doesn't have any BNC jacks for RGB or component, or you just have nothing connected to them?


Yes it has the BNC jacks, they're integral to all the BA boards but I have nothing connected to them. I don't think you're doing anything wrong to access Input A, B etc. Its basically a one button process to switch inputs. Just make sure you have a signal being fed to the appropriate Input so the system can lock on to it.
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
dave148 wrote:
HaydnG90 wrote:
dave148 wrote:

Can anyone verify I am choosing the RGBHV inputs correctly?

Dave


I only have HDMI connected so can't help there.


So your unit doesn't have any BNC jacks for RGB or component, or you just have nothing connected to them?


Yes it has the BNC jacks, they're integral to all the BA boards but I have nothing connected to them. I don't think you're doing anything wrong to access Input A, B etc. Its basically a one button process to switch inputs. Just make sure you have a signal being fed to the appropriate Input so the system can lock on to it.

So If you press the A button now, do you get a "no input" error, or a "Not applicable!" error?
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
dave148 wrote:
HaydnG90 wrote:
The Dallas chip contains a Li-ion battery which provides current to store the data that resides on the memory, should the power be cut, pj turned off etc. The approx lifetime for the battery is 10 years. The effects of a dying battery are varied and in worse case scenario will cause the scanning electron beam to collapse resulting in spot burn @tube faces. This is what you want to avoid at all costs as the real value in these pj's at this point are the tubes.

In my case I saw sudden shifts in blue convergence by a few cm. Plus I was unable to access the service mode. All odd behavior that's apparently unrelated directly to the stored data on the chip. Craig copied my data to a new chip a few months ago and I haven't had any further issues/weird behavior.

Great. What a flaky way to store data. If it can actually result in a no scan situation, then it sounds like it is storing more than this list I made. Can anyone confirm what is stored on the part? I hope the lack of scanning in the case you mentioned was actually caused by something that happened at the same time as bad data on the part, and not by the part itself. Otherwise, just powering down the part for a short time with an old battery would cause it to loose data. I suppose I could send it out with a power supply attached. What a mess.

It sounds like the safest way to address the problem would for me to do something in-house, with no delay.

What is programmed on the parts Curt has available, some basic configuration with default settngs for things like convergence?

I checked my notes, and it looks like I may have purchased a programmer for these parts years ago. I guess I need to find it.

Dave


If I was in your shoes I'd get the Dallas chip sent immediately to Craig and have him check and try to copy the stored data. The stock chips are completely virgin. There is no pre-stored data on a new part so hopefully what you have on the current one can be salvaged. If not you're going to need a complete recalibration for convergence, gray scale etc. ...

So it sounds like I can just plug in the part I purchased from Allied in 2011, and all I have to do is recalibrate. Or if I get the programmer to work, I may be able to actually read and save the old data before the battery runs out.
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dave148 wrote:

So it sounds like I can just plug in the part I purchased from Allied in 2011, and all I have to do is recalibrate. Or if I get the programmer to work, I may be able to actually read and save the old data before the battery runs out.


By 'part' do you mean Dallas chip? Be cautious, there are a lot of fake Dallas chips on the market. I'm not familiar with Allied. As far as I know there are only a couple of reliable sources of genuine parts, one being Mouser. Considering the minimal cost I'd only install a recent manufacture part.
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
dave148 wrote:

So it sounds like I can just plug in the part I purchased from Allied in 2011, and all I have to do is recalibrate. Or if I get the programmer to work, I may be able to actually read and save the old data before the battery runs out.


By 'part' do you mean Dallas chip? Be cautious, there are a lot of fake Dallas chips on the market. I'm not familiar with Allied. As far as I know there are only a couple of reliable sources of genuine parts, one being Mouser. Considering the minimal cost I'd only install a recent manufacture part.

Mouser, Newark, Allied, and Digi-Key are all legitimate distributors of electronic parts used by many manufacturers. If any of them shipped counterfit parts, they would be in some major trouble with customers a million times larger than I am. The DS1245Y-120+ appears to be a module containing two semiconductor dice, and a battery. Here is the data sheet for more recent versions:

https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/256/DS1245AB-DS1245Y-7200.pdf

By "part" I mean the product you guys are calling the "dallas chip", which is actually a multichip module + battery.


Last edited by dave148 on Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just semantics. So long as we all know what we're talking about.

My second Dallas chip from an authorized vendor was defective and the batch failed prematurely. I would still get one that was newer than 2011. As you probably know the battery is activated the first time its installed and current passed through it.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23729
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
Just semantics. So long as we all know what we're talking about.

My second Dallas chip from an authorized vendor was defective and the batch failed prematurely. I would still get one that was newer than 2011. As you probably know the battery is activated the first time its installed and current passed through it.


Is that correct? My understanding is that it's an internal lithium battery that simply keeps the internal memory from maintaining what it's got written to it. So that battery is 'live' as soon as the Dallas chip is manufactured.
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
Just semantics. So long as we all know what we're talking about.

My second Dallas chip from an authorized vendor was defective and the batch failed prematurely. I would still get one that was newer than 2011. As you probably know the battery is activated the first time its installed and current passed through it.

Yes, semantics. "Part" is the general term.

Actually, I didn't read the datasheet in that detail. But now that you mention it, I see the "Freshness seal" feature that enables the lithium battery when Vcc is set > 4.25V

Curt, what version of the DS1245 do you typically stock?
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever you get make sure its the 120+ version.
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
Whatever you get make sure its the 120+ version.

That's what I have, but why do you want that version? Shouldn't the 70ns access time versions work just as well?
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HaydnG90



Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1104



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2018 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its a newer updated design and therefore less likely to fail due to age
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

HaydnG90 wrote:
Its a newer updated design and therefore less likely to fail due to age

What makes you say this? The revision history section of the 11/10 datasheet shows the elimination of the -85, -100, and -120 version of the parts. I was guessing that technology has advanced to the point where there is no economical advantage in shipping the slower parts any more. Shipping parts with different speeds has to do with yields and binning, things you probably don't want to be bored with.

If you are talking about the "+" at the end of the part name, that just indicates a lead-free RoHS-compliant package.

I do believe the "Y" and the *missing* "P" in the part number are important. The first indicates power supply tolerance, and the threshold where full function, and write protection occurrs. If the part number has a "P" after the "Y", then it indicates the 34 pin part that allows an external battery that snaps on the top.

Dave
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ElTopo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1509



PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dallas Chips from Mouser i have are from 2017.
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dave148



Joined: 15 Feb 2011
Posts: 33
Location: Colorado Springs


PostLink    Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2018 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElTopo wrote:
The Dallas Chips from Mouser i have are from 2017.

Is there a date code on them that translates to 2017, or is this just when you purchased them?
What is the actual part number printed on the package?

Would someone mind pressing the "A" button on their unit and tell me what response they get?
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