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ICinRGB
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 15
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 Link Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 4:55 pm Post subject: Barco 909 vs Marquee 9500LC |
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I have 9500LC that I'm pretty happy with, and I use it mainly for videogames and movies. I'm a resolution/refresh rate snob and am interested in what the 909 says it can do, claiming a max resolution of 3200x2560p. Is there any truth to this? How does the bandwidth compare to the Marquee and can it do 1080p/72 without softening and having ringing on the far left side of the image? I hear the 909 has the best focus, is it worth moving from a 9500LC? I'm still very unhappy with the motion resolution of all the digitals I've seen so I'm staying with CRT for the time being.
Thanks,
Tony
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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If you have a well operating 9500LC then I'd say no. Of course there would be some difference, good and bad on both side. But these differences would be minor compared to the price and hassle involved in such exchange...
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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ICinRGB
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 15
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| Link Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Ok. Thanks for the response and the info gjaky!
A little something I wanted to share with anyone interested, I've found that running 1080p/58 on Windows 10 through Nvidia Control Panel allows you to not have any ringing, even without a scaler. Its especially useful for PC games. The bandwidth can be kept low as well, as the front and back portches can be reduced a fair amount. As soon as 59hz or above is selected, the image scan width becomes 20 or so percent wider for some reason, and ringing is introduced after H Size is corrected to fit the new wider picture. I've watched a 30fps concert blu ray on it through Kodi and witnessed no jerky panning. This resolution coupled with gamma correction through VideoEqualizer has eliminated the desire for a scaler for me. Hope this helps someone!
Cheers,
Tony
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Barco 909 vs Marquee 9500LC |
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| ICinRGB wrote: | I have 9500LC that I'm pretty happy with, and I use it mainly for videogames and movies. I'm a resolution/refresh rate snob and am interested in what the 909 says it can do, claiming a max resolution of 3200x2560p. Is there any truth to this? How does the bandwidth compare to the Marquee and can it do 1080p/72 without softening and having ringing on the far left side of the image? I hear the 909 has the best focus, is it worth moving from a 9500LC? I'm still very unhappy with the motion resolution of all the digitals I've seen so I'm staying with CRT for the time being.
Thanks,
Tony |
The 909 specs are a joke; no truth to that figure of 3,200x2560. They also claim a 180mhz BW and that's not true either. There is no CRT projector which can output 1080p/72 without raster ringing on the left side of the image. A video processor such as the Radiance can correct this issue via porch timing adjustment.
The marquee's video chain has higher BW but the 909 has a better focus system so there's pros/cons to both. 909's are more expensive and there are fewer parts available so it's more expensive to maintain. I would stick with the Marquee at this point.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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Tim in Phoenix
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4379
Location: Phoenix
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| Link Posted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Guys
The Marquee HDM goes into hi-band at 59khz so that is why the picture size changes, and likely where the ringing problem comes from, or the yokes.
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km987654
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 2857
Location: Australia
TV/Projector: Barco BG809s
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| Link Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:35 am Post subject: |
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A big advantage the 909 has over any other projector is digital convergence. I am not aware that any other projector has this feature but I am sure if there is someone here will correct the record.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| km987654 wrote: | | A big advantage the 909 has over any other projector is digital convergence. I am not aware that any other projector has this feature but I am sure if there is someone here will correct the record. |
I'd say this was another marketing BS from Barco. For instance the Convergence signal on Marquee is also purely digitally generated, some of the geometry functions however not. The aim of the digital signal generation -as Barco says- is lesser convergence drift, however, in reality the convergence drift mostly coming from the output amplifier's thermal drift (and not from the signal generation), from that point of view Barco uses essentially the same output amplifier structure as found in any other projector...
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Link Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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What is it that makes Barco superior with focusing? Aren't Marquee as good when used up against the screen with the remote? Personally I'm not happy until I feel I am one click away from the best focus I can get. So are you telling me that is still not enough compartment to a Barco high end?
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| thewolfman wrote: | | What is it that makes Barco superior with focusing? Aren't Marquee as good when used up against the screen with the remote? Personally I'm not happy until I feel I am one click away from the best focus I can get. So are you telling me that is still not enough compartment to a Barco high end? |
Focus and convergence are two separate things. Beam spot size as dictated by mechanical and EMF set up (including astig) then coupled with a set of lenses suitable for your screen size give you optimal focus. But you also have to consider the light output and how that factors in. A stock Marquee typically blooms at a contrast of 60 (usually about 9-10ftl on a 100" screen if memory serves). Now the modified video chains that we have can produce a good bit more light output and not bloom (thus a tighter beam spot size) resulting in both a sharp and dynamic image. On a stock Marquee running a lower contrast setting will provide for a sharper image but then you lose dynamic range so it's a trade off.
Both the G90 and 909 have EMF systems that were more advanced than the stock Marquee and could allow for more light output with less blooming. They also used LUG tubes which are sharper than LCP tubes.
There's a lot of factors which need to be considered but the above is a good generalization.
_________________
Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1311
Location: Sweden
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| Link Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | thewolfman wrote: | | What is it that makes Barco superior with focusing? Aren't Marquee as good when used up against the screen with the remote? Personally I'm not happy until I feel I am one click away from the best focus I can get. So are you telling me that is still not enough compartment to a Barco high end? |
Focus and convergence are two separate things. Beam spot size as dictated by mechanical and EMF set up (including astig) then coupled with a set of lenses suitable for your screen size give you optimal focus. But you also have to consider the light output and how that factors in. A stock Marquee typically blooms at a contrast of 60 (usually about 9-10ftl on a 100" screen if memory serves). Now the modified video chains that we have can produce a good bit more light output and not bloom (thus a tighter beam spot size) resulting in both a sharp and dynamic image. On a stock Marquee running a lower contrast setting will provide for a sharper image but then you lose dynamic range so it's a trade off.
Both the G90 and 909 have EMF systems that were more advanced than the stock Marquee and could allow for more light output with less blooming. They also used LUG tubes which are sharper than LCP tubes.
There's a lot of factors which need to be considered but the above is a good generalization. |
I typically run my contrast at about 80 +- 2 steps maybe. Brightness can be a little bit wider apart, with about 53-60, but never feel I am out of "brightness" I feel it's suffcient.
Beam spot size are permanent with pushed forward FY and feel it became better than Before so I like it. LUGs would have been fun as hell to just see, ah well, pipe dream so far.
Oh and I meant RGB focusing up at the screen, not convergence.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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I favor the 909 for several reasons:
-lack of convergence drift. While the geometry does drift, you'd never see it with one projector by itself, as the convergence is rock solid.
-many astig and focus zones, more than any other set.
-to me, LUG tubes and HFQ900 lenses are sharper than any other combo of tube/lens. Some have said that the GT17 lens is sharper, but not for me. (caveat, I I have not done side by side A/B comparisons) I did get the same LUG/HD10E lenses in on a bunch of Marquees I bought about 8 years ago, and that was a big improvement over the stock LCP tubes in the Marquees.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5681
Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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| Link Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | | to me, LUG tubes and HFQ900 lenses are sharper than any other combo of tube/lens. Some have said that the GT17 lens is sharper, but not for me |
My exact findings as well. The GT17 are second to the HFQ900's.
| Quote: | | I did get the same LUG/HD10E lenses in on a bunch of Marquees I bought about 8 years ago, and that was a big improvement over the stock LCP tubes in the Marquees. |
HD10E is supposed to be the same as the HFQ900, with HFQ900 being Barco's label for the same lens and I've seen some with both HFQ900 and HD10E on the same label.
The LUG's are without doubt a higher resolution (sharper) tube in comparison to the LCP.
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ICinRGB
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 15
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| Link Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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So is installing LUG's in a Marquee a sort of best of both worlds, focus and high bandwidth? I personally haven't had any issues with convergence drift or geometry with my 9500LC. How difficult is it to install LUG's in a Marquee?
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jbmeyer13
Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1135
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| Link Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ICinRGB wrote: | | So is installing LUG's in a Marquee a sort of best of both worlds, focus and high bandwidth? I personally haven't had any issues with convergence drift or geometry with my 9500LC. How difficult is it to install LUG's in a Marquee? |
LUG's have nothing to do with bandwidth. They are a sharper tube and aren't difficult to install (the video neck boards need to be drilled out) but there's a lot more going on than simply swapping the tubes to optimize the end result: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38911&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
I don't recommend it. I know several who have tried it and didn't find it to offer a distinct advantage.
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Projector: Modded 9501LC ULtra- MP VIM, Vold VNB, ETECH LVPS, Silver VIM Cables, HD10F's & a V1 case!
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 24305
Location: Langley, BC
TV/Projector: All of them!
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| Link Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| ICinRGB wrote: | | So is installing LUG's in a Marquee a sort of best of both worlds, focus and high bandwidth? I personally haven't had any issues with convergence drift or geometry with my 9500LC. How difficult is it to install LUG's in a Marquee? |
I've never had success. I've had focusing issues, although I know VDC had no issues putting LUGs into a Marquee, the high end flight sim units came stock that way.
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ICinRGB
Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 15
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| Link Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| jbmeyer13 wrote: | | ICinRGB wrote: | | So is installing LUG's in a Marquee a sort of best of both worlds, focus and high bandwidth? I personally haven't had any issues with convergence drift or geometry with my 9500LC. How difficult is it to install LUG's in a Marquee? |
LUG's have nothing to do with bandwidth. They are a sharper tube and aren't difficult to install (the video neck boards need to be drilled out) but there's a lot more going on than simply swapping the tubes to optimize the end result: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=38911&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
I don't recommend it. I know several who have tried it and didn't find it to offer a distinct advantage. |
I understand the tubes have nothing to do with bandwidth, just saying that marquee's offer superior bandwidth to the 909, or so I hear, having no experience with a 909.
Ah, well too bad. It's frustrating to me that CRT projectors seem to support such low bandwidth compared to, say, a Sony FW900 direct view monitor. Even on my 21" Sony E500. a lower bandwidth monitor, I can easily push 300mhz without any discernable softening to the image.
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gjaky
Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2790
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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| Link Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| ICinRGB wrote: |
Ah, well too bad. It's frustrating to me that CRT projectors seem to support such low bandwidth compared to, say, a Sony FW900 direct view monitor. Even on my 21" Sony E500. a lower bandwidth monitor, I can easily push 300mhz without any discernable softening to the image. |
You can bet if a direct view CRT monitor would have to put out that much light as the projector the bandwidth would be quite similar.
BTW it would be interesting to see how the SMPTE pattern is resolved on such monitor.
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB, VIM-DB
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009
Posts: 2251
Location: The Netherlands
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| Link Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| Curt Palme wrote: | I favor the 909 for several reasons:
-lack of convergence drift. While the geometry does drift, you'd never see it with one projector by itself, as the convergence is rock solid.
-many astig and focus zones, more than any other set.
-to me, LUG tubes and HFQ900 lenses are sharper than any other combo of tube/lens. Some have said that the GT17 lens is sharper, but not for me. (caveat, I I have not done side by side A/B comparisons) I did get the same LUG/HD10E lenses in on a bunch of Marquees I bought about 8 years ago, and that was a big improvement over the stock LCP tubes in the Marquees. |
I do agree and I had both and tried to get to the bottom with both models. The 909 had a deeper black, less noise, razor sharp and very bright peak whites. It also had a just better quality feeling in everything, the image came more to life and I feel bandwidth is sometimes overrated 
To make it short. When you get a 909 to work you will get the wow feeling right away. With the 9500 I did not really get it after lots of mods but that was my experience.
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701s->runco933->8500ultra->hd1->hd350->vw100->cinemax+919sp+3x919+9500mp->cinemax+919sp(modded)+kuro600a
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