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1209 with Moome card ...any one tried this?

 
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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: 1209 with Moome card ...any one tried this? Reply with quote


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Has anyone used the Moome card with 1209? I have been trying to get the Moome card to produce a high quality picture and have required extreme adjustments of BLACK/Contrast levels to bring the picture out of complete gloom and still dark scenes are buried. The Gamma adjustment on the Moome card clicks but is not responsive even in test mode of clicking 0 / 100.

Let me give you the latest information.
I moved to my other Lumagen, a Radiance XE which has no RGBHV only HDMI.
It offers a bit more range on adjustability. I set the BLACK level to MAXIMUM (64) and on the 1209 CONTRAST to MAXIMUM which brought scenes with bright pictures to a clean level that was reasonably good. White levels on both the settings are near middle. Raising them would destroy the picture.
When there are dark scenes in a movie they are totally washed out with a very weak image.
I found the best picture on setting B
The image source is a MacBook I have used for a long time for movies.
The massive black level corrections needed should be a strong clue regarding signal levels I assume. I have no way of measuring since I do not have a card extender. I might be able to get an oscilloscope to check levels if there is a test point.

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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:39 pm    Post subject: Additional information Reply with quote

With some guidance from Moome, I tested the Gamma control which operates correctly. (though still no visible effect on the screen). I tapped into the Green output of the Moome card, attached a semi functional scope to it with my Lumagen feeding a grey bar pattern. The black level on the Lumagen was at MAXIMUM and the apparent peak to peak peak was ~.8V. I then toggled the Gamma 0/100 and agains saw a definitive response BUT NO CHANGE TO THE IMAGE.

I can't use this with BLACK level maxed out because it is still a dimmer picture than acceptable with bad contrast so if anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear.

Also if anyone has a 1209 manual it would be useful. I only have a 1209s and they are not the same at all.

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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you try a couple of things..

1) Can you bypass the Lumagen completely, and run the signal source right to the Moome card?
2) Change the resolution from (I'm assuming) 1080p down to say 480p and see if things change?
3) Do you have a way to input an RGBHV signal from an old laptop? I just want to see if things work fine via Input 5.
thanks!
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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:
Can you try a couple of things..

1) Can you bypass the Lumagen completely, and run the signal source right to the Moome card?
2) Change the resolution from (I'm assuming) 1080p down to say 480p and see if things change?
3) Do you have a way to input an RGBHV signal from an old laptop? I just want to see if things work fine via Input 5.
thanks!


I used the Lumagen because it provided a test pattern internally (Radiance XD). I have run directly from Apple TV and from a MacBook Pro that is used to play movies. The results were in line with what I see now but will try again given they will not have any black level controls other than the PJ.

My original set up was with a Lumagen Vision HDP through port 3 (using a break out cable) and had a great picture with black levels around the default range. The red output (Lumagen Vision HDP) seems to have gotten zapped so I can't go back except for GB Sad

I have used Port 5 w/o a break out for comparisons with the regular card in. I can try to find a PC compatible cable to try.

I will try the resolution at 480 and see what I get as well.

Barry

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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't think Port 5 was live w/o the card inside. Now I know. It is daytime but I ran Apple TV through Lumagen Vision HDP. Still no red output but the picture was bright with contrast and brightness at nominal 128 setting. It is brighter than when I run full black level boost. I will look to try running a Mac input with my break out cable.
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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me clarify my prior statement. The Lumagen Vision HDP through Port 5 set at the default values for black level and brightness is brighter than going through the Moome card with maxed out Black Levels on the Radiance XD.
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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me clarify my prior statement. The Lumagen Vision HDP through Port 5 set at the default values for black level and brightness is brighter than going through the Moome card with maxed out Black Levels on the Radiance XD.
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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Can you try a couple of things..

1) Can you bypass the Lumagen completely, and run the signal source right to the Moome card?
2) Change the resolution from (I'm assuming) 1080p down to say 480p and see if things change?
3) Do you have a way to input an RGBHV signal from an old laptop? I just want to see if things work fine via Input 5.
thanks!"

1- Yes, I can run it directly from the Mac or from Apple TV - Apple TV and Mac produce similarly dim images that require extreme boosting of black levels in BOTH the 1209 and the Lumagen (either Vision HDP or Radiance XD) I have had to run Lumagen Black levels to maximum to get a viewable image.
2 - I tried changing the resolution to 480p from 1080p - Result is no change in brightness or contrast
3 - I spent hours on this one. I have the breakout cable D9 to RGBHV BNCs. The challenge was to match a 15D connector (Thunderbolt > D15 VGA female > D15 Male > D9 Female > Breakout able > BNCs RGBHV on Port 5)
Of course the converter from 9 > 15 was not matching what was needed so that was a soldering operation to match it.
When I connected the Mac through Thunderbolt I could not get the picture to sync. There are limited options to modify on the Mac display settings and nothing worked.....finally gave that route up.

I am curious about anyone else having an experience with the Moome 1209 card in a 1209. I have two now that function the same. I wonder if there are major pot adjustments needed.

Also remember that while I have seen gamma control signal AND the G output from the cable change in response to the button, no discernible change happens in the image....that is really wierd.

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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing. If I run the 1209 through port 5 from the Lumagen Vision HDP, I am able to get a normal picture in terms of brightness with black levels all set to default midrange positions. The red is still not working (Lumagen HDP issue) or I would be going back, at least for now, to using it for viewing.
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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:45 pm    Post subject: Is there a DC offset required from Moome card output? Reply with quote

I wanted to see what voltage levels the Port 3 card output had that produced a fully bright picture when the Moome card, with roughly the same .7-.8V p-p levels did not. My error was that I did not use DC coupling in the first experiment. The question now is why the Moome card had no DC offset / or is this correct?


I reran the oscilloscope measurements. This time I used first the regular Port 3 card, then the Moome card, both measuring the G output

With the Port 3 card on AC coupling, it again matched the Moome card.
BUT when I switched to DC coupled, the same signal was riding on a ~2.5V DC offset.

Moome card, I remeasured G output AC coupled and got the same result as before of roughly .7V - .8V p-p
Then I measured it DC coupled and got the SAME. There was no DC offset.

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Barry




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Posts: 186
Location: Los Gatos , Ca.


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Moome card requires PJ mods to work with 1209 (versus s) Reply with quote

I believe I have solved the diminished input problem:

- The 1209S uses R762719, for RGB switching board, which is what the Moome card seemed to be designed to. The inputs RGB go directly to a DC blocking capacitor so it doesn't matter if there is a DC component.
- The 1209 (Like an 808) uses R7617481 and its input is slightly different in that it has a high speed diode in series with the DC blocking cap. The problem is that the junction voltage of a forward biased diode is ~.7V which is what the incoming signal is roughly. So the diode is not only in its non-linear range but mostly shut off. I suspect the diode is to reduce ringing from undershoot but the 1209S didn't't seem to need it so I shorted all 3 RGB diodes and suddenly I had a much brighter picture.

This clearly explains why the Port 3 card worked fine with a 2.5V DC bias pushing the signal well into the diode liner on range.

Additionally, the Gamma changes are visible on the screen now.

It is too bright to adequately evaluate the results until tonight but I am pretty sure I have found the problem and I think also the solution. If it is not a good solution like this I have ordered a video opamp which I will wire up to add in the DC offset needed.

Thanks to Curt for finding an 808 manual file so I could see what the RGB board looked like on the input.
Thanks to Moome for supporting this effort for a few months
Thanks to Kal as well for his early suggestions...

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________


UPDATE - Bright picture but the colors are completely out of balance.....strongly magenta ....so I ran the same Apple TV into my Lumagen Radiance XD and the problem went away. Really nice picture..... probably time to reset all the convergence and redo. Smile Smile

Additional quick testing with my Lumagen Vision HDP (DVI) and I got another weird result so rather than debug solutions I don't plan to use I will let sleeping dogs lay....



Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 10.19.03 AM.png
 Description:
This is the RGB switcher in the 1209S - no diode before the DC blocking cap.
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Screen Shot 2018-02-16 at 10.19.03 AM.png



Input circuit on RGB switcher .png
 Description:
This the board in the 1209 - note the diode BEFORE the DC blocking cap.
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Input circuit on RGB switcher .png



IMG_6850.jpg
 Description:
These are the jumpers over the input diodes.

Download
 Filename:  IMG_6850.jpg
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
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Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: JVC NX9 + Paladin DCR & Sony G90 : Lumagen Radiance Pro


PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nicely done Smile

craigr

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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed! Make sure Moome sees this thread too if he hasnít already.

Kal

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Barry




Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the source, I am highly complimented Smile Thank you...
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