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Saw my first Epson laser projector today

 
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23592
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:08 am    Post subject: Saw my first Epson laser projector today Reply with quote


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I went out of town today to pick up a minty Runco DTV 1200 that I'd sold a customer about 4 years ago. He put in an Epson digital. It's a 4K unit, running with an Oppo UBluRay player. Weirdly, it's only sending 1080p up to the projector, which is then upscaling to 4K. Customer thinks it's the HDMI cable that's limiting the bandwidth.

I didn't catch the model number, but holy crap, the blacks! No noise from the projector.. which could be a bit of an issue, as you don't know if the projector is on or off, and the client said he's left it on accidentally already. Confused

He paid 4K CDN for it, with something like 200 hours on it. (that's about 3K USD).

I didn't have a lot of time, but he put on some scences of a 4K Blue Planet disc. I noticed some misconvergence on the sides, but I think that may have been on the disc, as I've seen that in some HD DVD Blue Planet scenes before.

What was nicest I think is that I didn't see that artificial sharpness that I see on flat screens at Costco all the time. He hadn't calibrated it yet, but it was a very watchable image. Unfortunately the Epson only has a blue test pattern with a crosshair and a circle, so I couldn't check white uniformity or convergence. With your eyes about 3' away from the 84" wide (?) screen, I did see slight red misconvergence, but not enough to be seen from the chairs.

For $4K, very impressive indeed! Laser is apparently rated at 30K hours in econo mode.
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gregstv



Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 622
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would you swapyour stack for one of these?
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23592
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, not at this point, as the stack is working fine. I really can't see going digital, as I'm pretty sure that my stack will last 10+ years. Then I'll be 64, and at that point I might not care any more. If I was starting from scratch and had $4K CDN to throw at a projector, it would be a contender for sure, but I'd want to see more test patterns before I made a decision.

BTW, I do have two digitals that I got from the recycler. One is a Domino SIM2 1080p that is my geometry reference projector, the other is a 1080p Epson that I figured up quickly, then put it away.
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of misconvergence, I think that some of the issue with misconverged digitals is intrinsic to the optical system.

My JVC RS45 is perfect in terms of pixel alignment in the central area. But out toward the edges, there is misalignment that you can see if you're close to the screen. It's uniform.

What I think is going on here is simply that the index of refraction of the lenses is different at each color, which leads to what is called chromatic aberration or color fringing. This will always be an issue if the lenses are not perfectly achromatic, and perfectly achromatic lenses are hella expensive.

Fortunately the misalignment is hardly as much as a single pixel in the corners, really not enough to see at the viewing position.

And it's not even a panel misalignment. It's just how the lenses are.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm thinking that as well, however some of the shots on Blue Planet also show misconvergence on my projectors, so it's been recorded that way onto the BluRay.
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Jeremy112



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 2643
Location: Fond du Lac, WI


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
On the subject of misconvergence, I think that some of the issue with misconverged digitals is intrinsic to the optical system.

My JVC RS45 is perfect in terms of pixel alignment in the central area. But out toward the edges, there is misalignment that you can see if you're close to the screen. It's uniform.

What I think is going on here is simply that the index of refraction of the lenses is different at each color, which leads to what is called chromatic aberration or color fringing. This will always be an issue if the lenses are not perfectly achromatic, and perfectly achromatic lenses are hella expensive.

Fortunately the misalignment is hardly as much as a single pixel in the corners, really not enough to see at the viewing position.

And it's not even a panel misalignment. It's just how the lenses are.


The reason you can see mis-convergence at the edges of the screen is more likely to be due to the DILA/LCoS panels not being equally toed' in to each other. one panel might be .05 degrees angled out on the left or right side than the other 2, and they can still be perfectly converged while having this issue, which is why it looks fine in the center of the image.

I see it all the time. It's not the lenses, not even cheapo projectors have that issue with lenses. If an expensive one did, I wouldn't buy it.

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jbltecnicspro



Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 468



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chris, does the RS-45 allow you to adjust zone convergence?
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jbltecnicspro



Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 468



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Saw my first Epson laser projector today Reply with quote

Curt Palme wrote:


What was nicest I think is that I didn't see that artificial sharpness that I see on flat screens at Costco all the time.

For $4K, very impressive indeed! Laser is apparently rated at 30K hours in econo mode.


That's really nice. Typically out of the box, it's like the sharpness is attenuated too high. That being said, I've never seen this as a mark against the digital displays. All one needs to do to remove the artificial look is to lower the sharpeness and turn off any edge enhancements. Unless your display is of the "bastard" kind and has it permanently enabled (I used to have this Toshiba CRT with a VM circuit that you couldn't disable even in service mode, so I took it apart and cut the power from the circuit! Very Happy).
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech


Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 23592
Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing is, that artificial sharpness seems to be the new industry standard, and it drives me nuts. Heck, I hear that some people posting screenshots here and elsewhere are using the Darbee to claim improvements on CRTs. Smile

Don't get me wrong, a well set up Darbee can add to a CRT image, but too much and it stinks. I saw that at Cliff's place the last time I was there.

A perfect image to me is if I look at a screen, regardless of technology, and I want to think I'm looking out a window. Super saturated colors and way too much detail don't do that for me. My stack lacks sharpness (primarily due to me being lazy about tweaking it and recapping the power supply, H board and convergence board), but overall I far prefer the softer CRT to the artificially sharp typical digital. The laser projector was sharper than CRT but without overdoing it..
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't even looked into whether or not it allows zone convergence. It's within half a pixel across the whole screen, so there's no need for me to even attempt it. But I'll look the next time I turn it on.
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jbltecnicspro



Joined: 23 Apr 2016
Posts: 468



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
I haven't even looked into whether or not it allows zone convergence. It's within half a pixel across the whole screen, so there's no need for me to even attempt it. But I'll look the next time I turn it on.


Thank you. I'm seriously considering the RS-45 as my next upgrade projector. When I was trying to get the G70 working, I bought a Yamaha DPX-1200. And while I like the projector (a lot actually), I would really like a full HD 1080p projector. Especially one that locks to a 24fps signal.
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm bewildered by a US$3K laser projector could get anything but horrible feedback from Curt, especially when talking black levels.

I think an Alien replaced Curt and that alien works for Epson.

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donaldk



Joined: 17 Jun 2008
Posts: 303



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC0A2biS2dI one of the many video's on youtube, Ekki did a few as well. Patrick at Grobi did record a prsentation at ISE 2014? where it was launched for Europe, and that also mentioned the HDMI input issue.

LS-10000 it originally retailed for 7K $/, replaced last year by the 10500. Epson develloped it to show off its capabilities. It then left further development of anything HT for the creation of a new market High Brightness LCD, with the 25K lumens laser-phosphor LCD projector.And smaller brothers. Making money of its laser engines in the commercial and education markets.

Epson build it on a small scale production line in Japan, not in shenzen, so it was a prestige project/development platform for Epson.

Curt, note that only one of the two HDMI ports is HDMI2.0a capable, the other is still 1.4a, so not 4K capable, so make sure he is using the right input for 4K input. It is HD with a singe schift so only 4 million pixels, not 8.3 millions. You should be able to hear the lens motor, and the iris. And perhaps the extensive cooling.
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