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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Since the LUG scan lines are finer with larger defined dark areas between them, I consider those to be the more easily noticed type.
As for the G90 magnetics in a Marquee, I HOPE to have the time this weekend to solve that puzzle.
The time consuming part of it is making up the wiring harness adapters. Once I've got a set of three made up, then the real experimental part begins. (Continues, actually.)
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:52 am Post subject: |
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cmjohnson wrote: | Since the LUG scan lines are finer with larger defined dark areas between them, I consider those to be the more easily noticed type.
As for the G90 magnetics in a Marquee, I HOPE to have the time this weekend to solve that puzzle.
The time consuming part of it is making up the wiring harness adapters. Once I've got a set of three made up, then the real experimental part begins. (Continues, actually.) |
OK, but being able to make this comparison happen, is something already available to me. It's what I have already in my setup. I have a test pattern in my generator I use for this, and it's best seen on the outer edge of the screen.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:48 am Post subject: |
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Actually I'm about to start rebuilding another Marquee. Right now every PJ I own has LUG tubes, and maybe for the ability to compare things on a level playing field, this time I may stick LCP tubes back into this one. If I ever actually did a side by side comparison of LCP and LUG tubes in the past, I don't remember it well enough to even be comfortable in offering an opinion on it.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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No need to be this secretive. What's the big thing about your special VNB?
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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thewolfman wrote: | No need to be this secretive. What's the big thing about your special VNB? |
I have three different test neck boards. Two of them are the VDC version, with only one being the 2038/9 original version. And the 2038 is a duplicate of what you have.
One of the modified VDC version was potted and was not able to get my latest upgrade, but I still use it look at noise in the projector. It has regulator added for the +/- 5 volt rails on the board. Unlike the stock version that uses regulated 6 volts and unregulated -5 volts to supply the video section. I've added the regulators to provide a clean and balanced +/- 5 volt supply for the video chain. Super clean, but has a not perfect linearity problem that doesn't really affect the image. So I use it when looking at noise only. Plus its very sharp.
The other VDC does not have the regulators, but I am using the inductors for the +/- (5/6v) supply to help clean it up for better low end and overall performance. It's closer to what you have because its very similar in changes made as the modified 2038 like what you have. I will sometime put it in my projector, but not lately. It is different in performance and I'm not sure which is better, but it has yet to be changed to get the same low end performance of the modified 2038. Sharp, but not quite the low end performance. So they I'll need to get back to them for that, but they are special. Just not sure how to describe them.
The modified 2038 like what you also have, works best with it's matching 02 VIM. I has a different "gain structure" that prevents me from over driving the AD835 gain amp on the VIM. And that's one of the contributing reasons I'm (and you) are able to drive the video chain full 100 contrast without the lines blooming or peaking. I really like this version and that's why I've not gotten back to the VDC version. Very clean, and that's done without adding regulators. And another good feature of them is how well the maintain the white level. That can also be seen in my shots, because there is almost zero clipping or peaking in the scenes. When clipping is almost always a problem.
There you have it. the 02 VIM you have and the one I have are the same. They have an improved relationship with the neck boards that greatly helps in eliminating that clipping problem, as well, allow a much better and linear high gain output to the screen. And they are low noise as well..i'll get back and try the same on the VDC one day, but for now I'm sticking with this version right now. I'm doing a few upgrades and will shut-down shop for awhile after that to get on another project for awhile, but will return later.
This may be a little complicated, but I would ask you to check out how well your boards handle white (clipping/peaking) as well the low end. You will need the LVPS done to really appreciate the low end performance though..
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:55 am Post subject: |
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Oh that was far more than I asked for, the brief version would have sufficed, but this works too to also suffice those more interested in knowing all the facts, even not understanding it all, like me. Thanks.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:29 am Post subject: |
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Just FYI, I've learned a few things about the "classic" 2038/2039 neck cards that are worth mentioning.
The big thing is to look at the inductors L8 and L9 which are found on either end of the multi-pin connector on the edge of the board.
Look at the ends of those inductors. If the seals have turned brown or black it's time to replace the inductors with new ones. They can be a source of streaking/smearing in the picture.
I've also seen for myself just how noisy an older LVPS can be and have it still work. I changed out an LVPS where the picture had incredible amounts of noise in it, putting in a much newer LVPS, and the noise visible on the raster dropped to very nearly nothing at all. The diference was dramatic.
Don't think for a moment that just because the LVPS is working, that it's good. Eventually they all get noisy and replacing electrolytic capacitors in them is going to take care of most of those noise issues.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Fri Apr 28, 2017 1:50 am Post subject: |
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thewolfman wrote: | Oh that was far more than I asked for, the brief version would have sufficed, but this works too to also suffice those more interested in knowing all the facts, even not understanding it all, like me. Thanks. |
Let me get through the weekend and I'll do a demo on what I'm talking about, but will do the 2038 that we both have and use a few test patterns as well.
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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Link Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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mp20748 wrote: | thewolfman wrote: | Oh that was far more than I asked for, the brief version would have sufficed, but this works too to also suffice those more interested in knowing all the facts, even not understanding it all, like me. Thanks. |
Let me get through the weekend and I'll do a demo on what I'm talking about, but will do the 2038 that we both have and use a few test patterns as well. |
Got it all here now Tjeerd. A kicked in side on the box made me have the courier take a shot of it. The size of one mans toes kicked in. I don't think it will matter. But the insides are shaky and not solid in place.. it is a crap shoot if it made it. But ordered quite a lot of tubes over the years so my luck got me thru it so far. Haven't unpacked any of it but will soon. If the remote works then I'm happy.
MP, you're not going to post patterns? I intend to when I get there. I want to see how the colors are like.. the old boards had this pink thing going on but doubtful it will now. If it still looks that way we can be sure the PC is indeed messing with the signal.
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racerxnet
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Illinois
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Link Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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thewolfman wrote: | mp20748 wrote: | thewolfman wrote: | Oh that was far more than I asked for, the brief version would have sufficed, but this works too to also suffice those more interested in knowing all the facts, even not understanding it all, like me. Thanks. |
Let me get through the weekend and I'll do a demo on what I'm talking about, but will do the 2038 that we both have and use a few test patterns as well. |
Got it all here now Tjeerd. A kicked in side on the box made me have the courier take a shot of it. The size of one mans toes kicked in. I don't think it will matter. But the insides are shaky and not solid in place.. it is a crap shoot if it made it. But ordered quite a lot of tubes over the years so my luck got me thru it so far. Haven't unpacked any of it but will soon. If the remote works then I'm happy.
MP, you're not going to post patterns? I intend to when I get there. I want to see how the colors are like.. the old boards had this pink thing going on but doubtful it will now. If it still looks that way we can be sure the PC is indeed messing with the signal. |
My suggestion is to run a standard timing of 1080I, 1080p, at 60 or 72 hz and set the timings accordingly. I posted some info regarding this in the computer section. You were running some oddball resolutions the last time. You can also use Calman software which is free for the gray scale/primaries from your desktop. Gray/primaries scale from projector first and then desktop second.
MAK
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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Link Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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racerxnet wrote: | thewolfman wrote: | mp20748 wrote: | thewolfman wrote: | Oh that was far more than I asked for, the brief version would have sufficed, but this works too to also suffice those more interested in knowing all the facts, even not understanding it all, like me. Thanks. |
Let me get through the weekend and I'll do a demo on what I'm talking about, but will do the 2038 that we both have and use a few test patterns as well. |
Got it all here now Tjeerd. A kicked in side on the box made me have the courier take a shot of it. The size of one mans toes kicked in. I don't think it will matter. But the insides are shaky and not solid in place.. it is a crap shoot if it made it. But ordered quite a lot of tubes over the years so my luck got me thru it so far. Haven't unpacked any of it but will soon. If the remote works then I'm happy.
MP, you're not going to post patterns? I intend to when I get there. I want to see how the colors are like.. the old boards had this pink thing going on but doubtful it will now. If it still looks that way we can be sure the PC is indeed messing with the signal. |
My suggestion is to run a standard timing of 1080I, 1080p, at 60 or 72 hz and set the timings accordingly. I posted some info regarding this in the computer section. You were running some oddball resolutions the last time. You can also use Calman software which is free for the gray scale/primaries from your desktop. Gray/primaries scale from projector first and then desktop second.
MAK |
Ok. So a Calman Blu-ray is what I need first? Then a light meter?
1080p is always difficult with a 2,35 screen.
We'll see.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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thewolfman wrote: | racerxnet wrote: | thewolfman wrote: | mp20748 wrote: | thewolfman wrote: | Oh that was far more than I asked for, the brief version would have sufficed, but this works too to also suffice those more interested in knowing all the facts, even not understanding it all, like me. Thanks. |
Let me get through the weekend and I'll do a demo on what I'm talking about, but will do the 2038 that we both have and use a few test patterns as well. |
Got it all here now Tjeerd. A kicked in side on the box made me have the courier take a shot of it. The size of one mans toes kicked in. I don't think it will matter. But the insides are shaky and not solid in place.. it is a crap shoot if it made it. But ordered quite a lot of tubes over the years so my luck got me thru it so far. Haven't unpacked any of it but will soon. If the remote works then I'm happy.
MP, you're not going to post patterns? I intend to when I get there. I want to see how the colors are like.. the old boards had this pink thing going on but doubtful it will now. If it still looks that way we can be sure the PC is indeed messing with the signal. |
My suggestion is to run a standard timing of 1080I, 1080p, at 60 or 72 hz and set the timings accordingly. I posted some info regarding this in the computer section. You were running some oddball resolutions the last time. You can also use Calman software which is free for the gray scale/primaries from your desktop. Gray/primaries scale from projector first and then desktop second.
MAK |
Ok. So a Calman Blu-ray is what I need first? Then a light meter?
1080p is always difficult with a 2,35 screen.
We'll see. |
This is a good recommendation here. Go with this and we'll help along the way. And unitl you get to a better place, stop worrying about test patterns, especially me needing to post them as if to rule out a problem on your boards. The boards you have are entirely different from what yo had before. There are no distortions to be concerned about.
I'll put my Beast Boards in the projector and will also do a quick color balance. This should give you a better idea what you have in that board set. A view-able image is better than a test pattern, they show you what the end result should look like.
The common test patterns you may see posted from time to time and are being used as a reference, should be understood better before thinking once it shows as stated, everything in the video chain is OK. That's far from the truth, as a SMPTE pattern 'should mean you're able to get 100% resolution on the screen, but that's not the case at all. The pattern can be perfect, yet the setup is terribly incapable of bring out what the patters real intent was on the screen. In other words, a full and complete SMPTE pattern should also show when the proper source is also displayed, and image that has depth and transparency. When that happens, you'll be able to see the same oil shine on a person face regardless of where they are in the image (front/back/etc). You are also supposed to see all things that the HD camera captured from the transfer, clearly seen through-out the image. When that happens it is then when you're resolving True HD. What that pattern should represent, it doesn't. It is a basic at best test pattern for resolution, but not quite there when you're dealing with HD.
I've been working hard on this and soon I'll get you all on board with getting the best out of my mods. The goal is more about depth and transparency, they are the two main attributes of a well displayed HD image. Your boards have the capability and we'll help you get there. So relax and follow Mak's recommendation and in due time, we'll get you there.
In the mean time I'll put a set of boards in the projector, do a basic color calibration and hopefully you'll get an idea what to look for. Foreground or close-up images are fine, but they don't really represent HD. It's when you're able to visually see things equally clear through-out the image. That's when you know you're doing HD properly. And since having my latest boards, that should be our goal..
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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Link Posted: Fri May 05, 2017 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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That's great, I'll do my part. But I never asked for something that wasn't offered in the first place. You said you would post so it was a legitimate question.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:31 am Post subject: |
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thewolfman wrote: | That's great, I'll do my part. But I never asked for something that wasn't offered in the first place. You said you would post so it was a legitimate question. |
So that I'm clear on this, because I'm not seeing why posting test patterns could be that much of a concern. So can you explain what would make this an important thing to do?
I've not posted them for a number5 or reasons, to start with not remembering to not seeing it as being really necessary. Plus, my setup is really not test pattern ready, because it's far from being properly setup, something I was waiting to do after I swapped out the green tube.
I'll give some thought over the next few days as to rather I should dial the projector in before I get the tube in.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: |
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This is a full on.
The green LCP tube has a higher gain when first turned on, and evens out to the Red and Green LUG's in about 30 minutes. The projector it came out of had rebuilt tubes in it.
I could better converge, better focus and even wait until the tube levels out. But why When Ive been saying I have a defective tube that needs replacement...I don't want to do much of a setup until after I replace the tube. And why is the importance of this that you want me to spend a day calibrating the projector to show you test patterns. What test patterns and why?
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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Link Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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That's the one. Thanks. I only wanted to see if the colors shifts somewhat into colors that shouldn't be there. Other than that I know nada about what's going on. Not qualified but it looks great to me. Same uniform colors, that's what I want. I hope the PC will not mess with the signal.
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mp20748
Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 5681 Location: Maryland
TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM
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Link Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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thewolfman wrote: | That's the one. Thanks. I only wanted to see if the colors shifts somewhat into colors that shouldn't be there. Other than that I know nada about what's going on. Not qualified but it looks great to me. Same uniform colors, that's what I want. I hope the PC will not mess with the signal. |
Here is the green, that shows what it looks like before warmup:
I'll most likely start a separate thread or do another mini forum, where I can help you guys get these boards functioning at their best level. You will need some help for that, and I'm thinking we should provide a platform where you would be able to make that happen yourself. I put a lot in these Mods this time, and I want to make sure you'll be able to get the best out of them.
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racerxnet
Joined: 20 Jun 2007 Posts: 362 Location: Illinois
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Link Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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thewolfman wrote: | That's the one. Thanks. I only wanted to see if the colors shifts somewhat into colors that shouldn't be there. Other than that I know nada about what's going on. Not qualified but it looks great to me. Same uniform colors, that's what I want. I hope the PC will not mess with the signal. |
What OS are you running, graphics card, color space output, Driver version for GPU, what software renderer, and output levels to the renderer (16-235 or 0 - 255)? Calman will help see if the output is jazzed up on the levels when looking at the color bar ramps.
MAK
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redfox001
Joined: 16 Mar 2009 Posts: 2251 Location: The Netherlands
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Link Posted: Sat May 06, 2017 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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@Wolfman the tube was packaged in the original box with the original material around it as far as I know. Did it survive?
_________________ 701s->runco933->8500ultra->hd1->hd350->vw100->cinemax+919sp+3x919+9500mp->cinemax+919sp(modded)+kuro600a
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thewolfman
Joined: 28 Mar 2011 Posts: 1311 Location: Sweden
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Link Posted: Sun May 07, 2017 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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racerxnet wrote: | thewolfman wrote: | That's the one. Thanks. I only wanted to see if the colors shifts somewhat into colors that shouldn't be there. Other than that I know nada about what's going on. Not qualified but it looks great to me. Same uniform colors, that's what I want. I hope the PC will not mess with the signal. |
What OS are you running, graphics card, color space output, Driver version for GPU, what software renderer, and output levels to the renderer (16-235 or 0 - 255)? Calman will help see if the output is jazzed up on the levels when looking at the color bar ramps.
MAK |
I have to get back to you on that.
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