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panzeroceania
Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 24 Location: Salem, Oregon
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Link Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I too am interested in this. I was just looking at the HD Fury Integral (with no analog output) but with HDCP 2.2 reading and HDR etc.
And I thought "I wonder if Moome has a new card out now" There is definitely a demand. I know 8K will eventually come to fruition, but I get the feeling that 2160p and HDCP 2.2 will be the standard for a very long time. Would be nice if it could be compatible with Dolby Vision in addition to HDR10, but honestly anything that can handle HDCP2.2 at this point would be more than welcome.
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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As has been noted, the thing about 4K is not that a CRT projector is likely to resolve it, but that it offers deeper color bit depth, which we CAN make use of.
I say it's worth developing a 4K/HDCP 2.2 compatible version just for the color depth improvement alone. I am among the most
optimistic people with regard to how far CRT can be pushed into the UHD world but even I simply don't believe that we'll ever get past 4K. It's very unlikely that we'll get honest 4K. I'm hoping for an intermediate target between 1080p and 4K, maybe 3K or 2.5K.
One possibility that crossed my mind a few days ago would be to convert 4K to E-shifted 4K, consisting of two interlaced 1080p fields each derived from the 4K signal and displayed with a 1/2 pixel horizontal and vertical offset.
Read more about that in the Lumagen forum.
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gregstv
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 628 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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I not sure how moome is looking at this from a business point of view. Maybe if we came up with an idea of quantities he would no if it's worth his while. How many would he sell for each type of projector. How many would make it worth while for him?
I am looking at buying another card but I would wait if there was a chance of a new version. Just not sure if there is enough interest in CRT left for a new version to happen.
Just my two cents worth.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:19 am Post subject: |
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gregstv wrote: | I not sure how moome is looking at this from a business point of view. Maybe if we came up with an idea of quantities he would no if it's worth his while. How many would he sell for each type of projector. How many would make it worth while for him?
I am looking at buying another card but I would wait if there was a chance of a new version. Just not sure if there is enough interest in CRT left for a new version to happen.
Just my two cents worth. |
Well I can tell you that almost certainly the Sony card would come out first and would sell the best. Moome has told me that he sells far and away more Sony IFB cards than any other.
Once that's done, it's not too hard to make a few modifications for a Marquee version. But I know the last Marquee board had slow sales.
craigr
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:47 am Post subject: |
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Well, I'm not going to tell Moome his business but if I were to plan out the new card from a conceptual point of view, I'd make it as a daughter card containing all the processing and a few brand-specific mother cards that interface to the projectors. Those mother cards would be inexpensive to make and allow for the actual "important part" of the cards to be made in larger quantities, being a universal product, thus keeping costs down.
I think there's merit to that idea.
I know I'd be interested for sure in buying not less than two Sony version cards and not less than two Marquee cards as well.
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gregstv
Joined: 27 Aug 2007 Posts: 628 Location: Australia
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Link Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:56 am Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | gregstv wrote: | I not sure how moome is looking at this from a business point of view. Maybe if we came up with an idea of quantities he would no if it's worth his while. How many would he sell for each type of projector. How many would make it worth while for him?
I am looking at buying another card but I would wait if there was a chance of a new version. Just not sure if there is enough interest in CRT left for a new version to happen.
Just my two cents worth. |
Well I can tell you that almost certainly the Sony card would come out first and would sell the best. Moome has told me that he sells far and away more Sony IFB cards than any other.
Once that's done, it's not too hard to make a few modifications for a Marquee version. But I know the last Marquee board had slow sales.
craigr |
What about the Barco boards?
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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panzeroceania
Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 24 Location: Salem, Oregon
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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Oppo just released a UHD Blu Ray player that will support Dolby Vision with a future update. Sony is also supposed to release a similar player in 2017
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Dolby Vision is basically advanced HDR. It's not likely to provide any improvement path for CRT users. In fact, it'll require a display made to DV standards to achieve its promise.
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panzeroceania
Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 24 Location: Salem, Oregon
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:42 am Post subject: |
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really? As long as the display is capable of the gamut and contrast wouldn't that be adaquate?
Also, relevant to the conversation
https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/04/hdmi-2-1-specification/
HDMI 2.1 specification is being rolled out and doubles the bandwidth, which was needed otherwise Avatar 2 in stereoscopic 3D at 60 fps in 4K would not be possible, now it is. heh
seriously though the bandwidth limitations of HDMI 2.0 always seemed extremely short sighted, especially in comparison with displayport, so seeing this bump to the HDMI spec is a relief
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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panzeroceania
Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 24 Location: Salem, Oregon
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Frankly all this makes me want to throw up. The industry is just going for a money grab. UHD specs for HDR are still in flux, we still don't have any UHD BD players that work properly on everything, discs are being mastered using the incorrect DCI P3 gamut, some discs are mastered with HDR at 1000 nits or 2000 or 4000 nits or 10000 nits, there isn't much source material, 18GHz on HDMI has proven rather touchy and difficult so pushing this harder will make everything worse, and there is very little 4k content let alone UHD content.
The transition to 4K and UHD has been a total disaster and industry f*ck up... so why not throw even more variables into the equation I swear, if I get anyone asking me to setup 8k in their theater within the next two years I am going to hang up on them.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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panzeroceania
Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 24 Location: Salem, Oregon
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:24 am Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering I wholeheartedly agree that the spec is about as far from final as it can be. I already decided that I'm not investing in any mainstream gear until 2018 or early 2019, with the exception of high end products related to my CRT projector.
current TVs can't even reach 100% DCI-P3, let alone surpass it, which would be required for correct color calibration, and as you already stated, no one is getting close to 10,000 nits. And we have yet to see any 3D or high framerate material, and eventually that will throw additional wrenches into the mix. That said, technology will and should move forward, we do need better colors, better peak brightness, and better contrast. It's just going to be messy for awhile.
DVD from my limited memory was fairly finished and smooth, but even the move to HD on Blu-Ray was a bumpy road with numerous updates and issues with compatibility.
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ElTopo
Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 1607
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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No HDMI No problem
_________________ Barco Cine 9 the one and only
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Know HDMI, know PROBLEM.
Going back to the original topic, if Moome would just create a new version HDMI card that supports 10 bit color (and MAYBE HDR, but with CRT you really don't have enough brightness to make that worthwhile, IMO) then that'd be worth having. Providing an option to output 4K at a driver level would be nice, for those who want to try it and see what they can do with it. Not that I expect many people would have the skill and the will to build 600 MHz video chains for their projectors.
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panzeroceania
Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 24 Location: Salem, Oregon
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Link Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Agreed, although you could support 12 bit or 16 bit for the sake of future proofing and never have to update.
Also a problem is there are many competing HDR formats. Sure at the least supporting HDR10 is good, but it will likely soon be receiving a patch for variable HDR, and there are other solutions out there like Dolby Vision, Technicolor, and Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) and no clear winner, and even while one will win out in North America, others will win out in other parts of the world so it'll be important to support multiple forms of HDR.
That said I'll take anything beyond HDMI 1.x. heck, we're already seeing improvements currently by just using a higher quality compression codec.
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panzeroceania
Joined: 23 Sep 2011 Posts: 24 Location: Salem, Oregon
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17850 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | Frankly all this makes me want to throw up. The industry is just going for a money grab. UHD specs for HDR are still in flux, we still don't have any UHD BD players that work properly on everything, discs are being mastered using the incorrect DCI P3 gamut, some discs are mastered with HDR at 1000 nits or 2000 or 4000 nits or 10000 nits, there isn't much source material, 18GHz on HDMI has proven rather touchy and difficult so pushing this harder will make everything worse, and there is very little 4k content let alone UHD content.
The transition to 4K and UHD has been a total disaster and industry f*ck up... so why not throw even more variables into the equation I swear, if I get anyone asking me to setup 8k in their theater within the next two years I am going to hang up on them. |
+1000! I get a lot of emails from folks new to calibration asking about 4K support. I have to take a deep breath before responding. It's a friggin' mess. I usually just want to reply "Why? Don't bother - it's all broken" (and kind of do that but in a nicer more thought out sort of way).
Kal
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cmjohnson
Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 5180 Location: Buried under G90s
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Link Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: |
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I think the industry is going to be forced to do what it should have done 20 years ago: Switch to fiber optical cable rather than
try to torture a small multi-conductor cable with a multi-GHz bandwidth requirement. SC format connectors would be just fine.
We don't even have the technology to drive a multi-mode fiber to its theoretical bandwidth limit. So, fiber is basically future-proof.
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