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Moome card with HDMI 2.0 and HDR possible ?
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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I too am interested in this. I was just looking at the HD Fury Integral (with no analog output) but with HDCP 2.2 reading and HDR etc.

And I thought "I wonder if Moome has a new card out now" There is definitely a demand. I know 8K will eventually come to fruition, but I get the feeling that 2160p and HDCP 2.2 will be the standard for a very long time. Would be nice if it could be compatible with Dolby Vision in addition to HDR10, but honestly anything that can handle HDCP2.2 at this point would be more than welcome.
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has been noted, the thing about 4K is not that a CRT projector is likely to resolve it, but that it offers deeper color bit depth, which we CAN make use of.

I say it's worth developing a 4K/HDCP 2.2 compatible version just for the color depth improvement alone. I am among the most
optimistic people with regard to how far CRT can be pushed into the UHD world but even I simply don't believe that we'll ever get past 4K. It's very unlikely that we'll get honest 4K. I'm hoping for an intermediate target between 1080p and 4K, maybe 3K or 2.5K.

One possibility that crossed my mind a few days ago would be to convert 4K to E-shifted 4K, consisting of two interlaced 1080p fields each derived from the 4K signal and displayed with a 1/2 pixel horizontal and vertical offset.

Read more about that in the Lumagen forum.
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gregstv




Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 628
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I not sure how moome is looking at this from a business point of view. Maybe if we came up with an idea of quantities he would no if it's worth his while. How many would he sell for each type of projector. How many would make it worth while for him?
I am looking at buying another card but I would wait if there was a chance of a new version. Just not sure if there is enough interest in CRT left for a new version to happen.
Just my two cents worth.
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4238
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: JVC NX9 + Paladin DCR & Sony G90 : Lumagen Radiance Pro


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregstv wrote:
I not sure how moome is looking at this from a business point of view. Maybe if we came up with an idea of quantities he would no if it's worth his while. How many would he sell for each type of projector. How many would make it worth while for him?
I am looking at buying another card but I would wait if there was a chance of a new version. Just not sure if there is enough interest in CRT left for a new version to happen.
Just my two cents worth.

Well I can tell you that almost certainly the Sony card would come out first and would sell the best. Moome has told me that he sells far and away more Sony IFB cards than any other.

Once that's done, it's not too hard to make a few modifications for a Marquee version. But I know the last Marquee board had slow sales.

craigr

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm not going to tell Moome his business but if I were to plan out the new card from a conceptual point of view, I'd make it as a daughter card containing all the processing and a few brand-specific mother cards that interface to the projectors. Those mother cards would be inexpensive to make and allow for the actual "important part" of the cards to be made in larger quantities, being a universal product, thus keeping costs down.

I think there's merit to that idea.

I know I'd be interested for sure in buying not less than two Sony version cards and not less than two Marquee cards as well.
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gregstv




Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Posts: 628
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
gregstv wrote:
I not sure how moome is looking at this from a business point of view. Maybe if we came up with an idea of quantities he would no if it's worth his while. How many would he sell for each type of projector. How many would make it worth while for him?
I am looking at buying another card but I would wait if there was a chance of a new version. Just not sure if there is enough interest in CRT left for a new version to happen.
Just my two cents worth.

Well I can tell you that almost certainly the Sony card would come out first and would sell the best. Moome has told me that he sells far and away more Sony IFB cards than any other.

Once that's done, it's not too hard to make a few modifications for a Marquee version. But I know the last Marquee board had slow sales.

craigr


What about the Barco boards?
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
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Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gregstv wrote:
What about the Barco boards?

Slowest of them all. Less than all others combined.

Sony outsells everything by a huge factor.

Kal

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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oppo just released a UHD Blu Ray player that will support Dolby Vision with a future update. Sony is also supposed to release a similar player in 2017
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dolby Vision is basically advanced HDR. It's not likely to provide any improvement path for CRT users. In fact, it'll require a display made to DV standards to achieve its promise.
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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

really? As long as the display is capable of the gamut and contrast wouldn't that be adaquate?

Also, relevant to the conversation

https://www.engadget.com/2017/01/04/hdmi-2-1-specification/

HDMI 2.1 specification is being rolled out and doubles the bandwidth, which was needed otherwise Avatar 2 in stereoscopic 3D at 60 fps in 4K would not be possible, now it is. heh

seriously though the bandwidth limitations of HDMI 2.0 always seemed extremely short sighted, especially in comparison with displayport, so seeing this bump to the HDMI spec is a relief
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kal
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

panzeroceania wrote:
really? As long as the display is capable of the gamut and contrast wouldn't that be adaquate?

Correct.

But that doesn't stop manufacturers from calling their displays "Dolby Vision" compatible like LG, TCL, and Vizio. They have displays that only support 10 bit and only put out 800-1000 nits of light (Dolby Vision supports up to 10,000-nit maximum brightness (mastered to 4,000-nit in practice) and color depth of up to 12-bits).

Dolby Vision uses ITU-R Rec. 2020 or 2100 for the wide-gamut color space while HDR10 uses uses the Rec. 2020 color space.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-dynamic-range_video#Standards

Kal

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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

another news article on HDMI 2.1

http://www.audioholics.com/news/hdmi-forum-announces-version-2.1-of-the-hdmi-specification
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4238
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: JVC NX9 + Paladin DCR & Sony G90 : Lumagen Radiance Pro


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly all this makes me want to throw up. The industry is just going for a money grab. UHD specs for HDR are still in flux, we still don't have any UHD BD players that work properly on everything, discs are being mastered using the incorrect DCI P3 gamut, some discs are mastered with HDR at 1000 nits or 2000 or 4000 nits or 10000 nits, there isn't much source material, 18GHz on HDMI has proven rather touchy and difficult so pushing this harder will make everything worse, and there is very little 4k content let alone UHD content.

The transition to 4K and UHD has been a total disaster and industry f*ck up... so why not throw even more variables into the equation Rolling Eyes I swear, if I get anyone asking me to setup 8k in their theater within the next two years I am going to hang up on them.

craigr

_________________
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Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters for JVC auto-calibration where Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
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Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering I wholeheartedly agree that the spec is about as far from final as it can be. I already decided that I'm not investing in any mainstream gear until 2018 or early 2019, with the exception of high end products related to my CRT projector.

current TVs can't even reach 100% DCI-P3, let alone surpass it, which would be required for correct color calibration, and as you already stated, no one is getting close to 10,000 nits. And we have yet to see any 3D or high framerate material, and eventually that will throw additional wrenches into the mix. That said, technology will and should move forward, we do need better colors, better peak brightness, and better contrast. It's just going to be messy for awhile.

DVD from my limited memory was fairly finished and smooth, but even the move to HD on Blu-Ray was a bumpy road with numerous updates and issues with compatibility.
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ElTopo




Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1572



PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No HDMI No problem Thumbs Up
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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Know HDMI, know PROBLEM. Very Happy


Going back to the original topic, if Moome would just create a new version HDMI card that supports 10 bit color (and MAYBE HDR, but with CRT you really don't have enough brightness to make that worthwhile, IMO) then that'd be worth having. Providing an option to output 4K at a driver level would be nice, for those who want to try it and see what they can do with it. Not that I expect many people would have the skill and the will to build 600 MHz video chains for their projectors.
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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, although you could support 12 bit or 16 bit for the sake of future proofing and never have to update.

Also a problem is there are many competing HDR formats. Sure at the least supporting HDR10 is good, but it will likely soon be receiving a patch for variable HDR, and there are other solutions out there like Dolby Vision, Technicolor, and Hybrid Log Gamma (HLG) and no clear winner, and even while one will win out in North America, others will win out in other parts of the world so it'll be important to support multiple forms of HDR.

That said I'll take anything beyond HDMI 1.x. heck, we're already seeing improvements currently by just using a higher quality compression codec.
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panzeroceania




Joined: 23 Sep 2011
Posts: 19
Location: Salem, Oregon


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More detailed information on HDMI 2.1

https://hdguru.com/hdmi-2-1-to-bring-robust-home-theater-experience/
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kal
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Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 16911
Location: Ottawa, Canada

TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
Frankly all this makes me want to throw up. The industry is just going for a money grab. UHD specs for HDR are still in flux, we still don't have any UHD BD players that work properly on everything, discs are being mastered using the incorrect DCI P3 gamut, some discs are mastered with HDR at 1000 nits or 2000 or 4000 nits or 10000 nits, there isn't much source material, 18GHz on HDMI has proven rather touchy and difficult so pushing this harder will make everything worse, and there is very little 4k content let alone UHD content.

The transition to 4K and UHD has been a total disaster and industry f*ck up... so why not throw even more variables into the equation Rolling Eyes I swear, if I get anyone asking me to setup 8k in their theater within the next two years I am going to hang up on them.

+1000! I get a lot of emails from folks new to calibration asking about 4K support. I have to take a deep breath before responding. It's a friggin' mess. I usually just want to reply "Why? Don't bother - it's all broken" (and kind of do that but in a nicer more thought out sort of way). Wink

Kal

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cmjohnson




Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the industry is going to be forced to do what it should have done 20 years ago: Switch to fiber optical cable rather than
try to torture a small multi-conductor cable with a multi-GHz bandwidth requirement. SC format connectors would be just fine.

We don't even have the technology to drive a multi-mode fiber to its theoretical bandwidth limit. So, fiber is basically future-proof.
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