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False Wall
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1131



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:56 pm    Post subject: False Wall Reply with quote


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I'm thinking of installing a false wall in my theater to accomodate a larger AT screen. The width would be 11' and approximately 7.5' high. The AT screen will be 67.5 x 120 1.78AR.

I don't want to overbuild this so I'm looking for advice on how to make something that doesn't scarafice performance but isn't overkill either.

Thanks,

Justin

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't over-think it. Just whack together a simple stud wall. Build it in pieces that you can tilt in and screw together: Side, screen opening/frame, top, and bottom of screen. You don't need 16" OC because it isn't load-bearing and you're not screwing drywall to it. You can use 24" OC or even larger spacing.

I'd highly recommend spending some time over at AVS in the Dedicated Theater Design & Construction sub-forum... There are LOTS of great ideas there. You can find everything from how to build it with openings to get behind it, removable panels, screen hinge methods, paint and cloth, and on and on.

SC
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Crab. Already did and I came across this: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=837848

Just wondering if anyone had input over here. Seems pretty simple and I should have done this initially.

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep... BIGmouthinDC's setup is probably pretty similar to what I'll build if I end up having to move this year. I like the simple, lightweight design that would be easy to do something in a "temp" theater, and be able to easily tear it back out to sell the house, or even in a rental house or something where you couldn't do a lot of mods.

I've even thought about building something that was pretty much free-standing like a piece of furniture... Sort of an "open box" that didn't even really touch the walls or ceiling, but just sat on the floor. Sort of a gigantic RPTV sort of looking thing, but with an AT front projection screen on it and speakers and subs inside. Seems like something a guy could knock out in a weekend once you had all the materials ready to go.

SC
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16167
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Justin, I also suggest maybe some how putting it on A hinge system so It can lift up and be propped up with a Brace for any Wiring or speaker changes at a later date. You could either have a side hinge made out of pins or a regular door type hinge at the top mounted
left center and right top. I like to make things accessible. it would also be a nice place to install a wall safe behind the screen in the actual wall its hiding.

I might do this myself when I decide to swap out the 8 Inch tubes and go to a 9 in LC blend. But i'll go about 16- 20 inches to accommodate the sub and three channel GFA 5503.

Athanasios

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dturco



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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I did just that. Built a false wall in three pieces, just put up sound isolation and fabric and recessed my screen. I have 4 screws in the top plate, 4 screws in the bottom plate, 4 screws in each side. It can be moved in 10 minutes and set back up in 20. I was experimenting with screen sizes is why I did it. I made it removable in case I sell the house the room could be easily turned back into a master bedroom/in-law suite.


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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Justin, I also suggest maybe some how putting it on A hinge system so It can lift up and be propped up with a Brace for any Wiring or speaker changes at a later date. You could either have a side hinge made out of pins or a regular door type hinge at the top mounted
left center and right top. I like to make things accessible. it would also be a nice place to install a wall safe behind the screen in the actual wall its hiding.

I might do this myself when I decide to swap out the 8 Inch tubes and go to a 9 in LC blend. But i'll go about 16- 20 inches to accommodate the sub and three channel GFA 5503.

Athanasios


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing about building a hinge system but then I saw Big Mouth's thread with the pressure fitted panels and it would provide the same accessibility without the complication of the hinge.

You should do that when you re-tube and STACK instead of that silly blend Razz

I'm definitely going to do this; just not sure if at this house or the next. My ceiling is only 7' so I'm trying to see if I can mount the PJ(s) on the ceiling without having people banging their heads. I calculated the throw distance based on my desire to install a 10' wide screen and it would be 13' to the front of the lens which places the PJ(s) directly over the rear seats. While it doesn't block viewing of the screen getting in and out of the seats could be a chore. It's like trying to stuff a V12 in a Civic chassis Twisted Evil

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Tedd



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just use a pair of $10 cleats like Home Depot sells to hang the screen?
Those would pair up nicely with BigmouthinDC's goal post method.
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Tedd



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thought is to recess the screen slightly, and build some 2.35:1 magnetic
manual masking panels.

Your space actually scales up, from mine. My sole concern would be if that's a crt projector, will
you get adequate lumens on what is a negative gain screen (when you discount marketing claims)?
But I think you have the scale of the room, bang on. Smile A bigger screen in a smallish room is a great
way to go. I'm also a fan of an AT screen calming a smaller room by visually eliminating gear that can
overwhelm a smaller space.

You'll also want dark surrounding finishes, to capture the light coming off in a uncontrolled manner,
for a woven AT screen.
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1131



PostLink    Posted: Thu May 14, 2015 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tedd wrote:
Another thought is to recess the screen slightly, and build some 2.35:1 magnetic
manual masking panels.

Your space actually scales up, from mine. My sole concern would be if that's a crt projector, will
you get adequate lumens on what is a negative gain screen (when you discount marketing claims)?
But I think you have the scale of the room, bang on. Smile A bigger screen in a smallish room is a great
way to go. I'm also a fan of an AT screen calming a smaller room by visually eliminating gear that can
overwhelm a smaller space.

You'll also want dark surrounding finishes, to capture the light coming off in a uncontrolled manner,
for a woven AT screen.


I actually ended up installing a Stewart ST130 AT electrimask screen that I purchased second hand. It was damaged during shipping and with Stewart's help supplying their Velux material I reupholstered the screen. Our house is on the market now so I'm debating whether I want to build a false wall at our next home.

I think I'm going to order a sample of the latest ST130 material that is non-perforated to see what the difference is from a normal viewing distance. If it's not perceptible then I'm going to build the false wall and conceal the speakers.

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Tedd



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to try a sample of SeymourAV.com's DIY XD AT material.
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tedd wrote:
You might want to try a sample of SeymourAV.com's DIY XD AT material.

Mega +1's. If you're even considering fixed AT, you should definitely look at Seymour.

http://www.seymourav.com/screensDIY.asp

SC
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1131



PostLink    Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Tedd wrote:
You might want to try a sample of SeymourAV.com's DIY XD AT material.

Mega +1's. If you're even considering fixed AT, you should definitely look at Seymour.

http://www.seymourav.com/screensDIY.asp

SC


I'm currently using Stewarts ST130 material which has been perforated. As such I'm probably around a 1.1 gain. To me the real question is what if any difference there will be if I were to switch to a non-perforated material. The image will likely be a slight bit brighter (not that I need that) but what I really want to know is the difference in sharpness. The perforations are not an issue unless I were to sit closer to the screen which I can't really do unless I mount the PJ on the ceiling. I prefer a floor set up for a variety of reasons.

If I were to go with the Seymour fabric I'd have to scrap my screen as I don't think they'd be able to match the button pattern to affix the material to my Stewart frame. If I were to build a scope screen then this is something I'd definitely look into.

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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah

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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jbmeyer13 wrote:
I'm currently using Stewarts ST130 material which has been perforated. As such I'm probably around a 1.1 gain. To me the real question is what if any difference there will be if I were to switch to a non-perforated material. The image will likely be a slight bit brighter (not that I need that) but what I really want to know is the difference in sharpness. The perforations are not an issue unless I were to sit closer to the screen which I can't really do unless I mount the PJ on the ceiling. I prefer a floor set up for a variety of reasons.

OK, I must have misunderstood - I thought you were specifically interested in ceiling mounting and sitting closer.

I can't see how you'd be losing any significant sharpness with one screen material or another. The CRT would be MTF/sharpness-limiting factor in almost every case - unless you were projecting on a really bumpy painted wall or something.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised though, if even if you can't see actual microperf holes from your seating position, that they still aren't having some effect on apparent resolution.

jbmeyer13 wrote:
If I were to go with the Seymour fabric I'd have to scrap my screen as I don't think they'd be able to match the button pattern to affix the material to my Stewart frame. If I were to build a scope screen then this is something I'd definitely look into.

You'd have to ask Chris at Seymour for his recommendation, but he doesn't use buttons at all. His material is much more stretchy, so he uses grommets and a frame with screw mounts. You just stretch the screen onto the frame. His DIY screens are much more affordable than anything Stewart sells, so if you wanted to switch, you could just sell your screen, and buy a Seymour screen.

Call Chris and ask him to send you a sample of the XD fabric and tape it up on your screen. I think you'll be surprised at how much that perf pattern really does interfere with the image. Microperf was great back when the source images were scaled-up 480i and 480p, but there's a LOT more resolution on the screen now. The AT fabrics like Chris uses have also gotten much, much better from 10 years ago when that shift really started.

Cheers,
SC
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, lord... I just realized Tedd bumped a two-year old thread and that your project was long complete. Never mind!

SC
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
Posts: 1131



PostLink    Posted: Fri May 15, 2015 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
jbmeyer13 wrote:
I'm currently using Stewarts ST130 material which has been perforated. As such I'm probably around a 1.1 gain. To me the real question is what if any difference there will be if I were to switch to a non-perforated material. The image will likely be a slight bit brighter (not that I need that) but what I really want to know is the difference in sharpness. The perforations are not an issue unless I were to sit closer to the screen which I can't really do unless I mount the PJ on the ceiling. I prefer a floor set up for a variety of reasons.

OK, I must have misunderstood - I thought you were specifically interested in ceiling mounting and sitting closer.

I can't see how you'd be losing any significant sharpness with one screen material or another. The CRT would be MTF/sharpness-limiting factor in almost every case - unless you were projecting on a really bumpy painted wall or something.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised though, if even if you can't see actual microperf holes from your seating position, that they still aren't having some effect on apparent resolution.

jbmeyer13 wrote:
If I were to go with the Seymour fabric I'd have to scrap my screen as I don't think they'd be able to match the button pattern to affix the material to my Stewart frame. If I were to build a scope screen then this is something I'd definitely look into.

You'd have to ask Chris at Seymour for his recommendation, but he doesn't use buttons at all. His material is much more stretchy, so he uses grommets and a frame with screw mounts. You just stretch the screen onto the frame. His DIY screens are much more affordable than anything Stewart sells, so if you wanted to switch, you could just sell your screen, and buy a Seymour screen.

Call Chris and ask him to send you a sample of the XD fabric and tape it up on your screen. I think you'll be surprised at how much that perf pattern really does interfere with the image. Microperf was great back when the source images were scaled-up 480i and 480p, but there's a LOT more resolution on the screen now. The AT fabrics like Chris uses have also gotten much, much better from 10 years ago when that shift really started.

Cheers,
SC


Well I did notice a pretty significant increase in sharpness when I moved from a Da-Lite 1.0 gain to the Stewart ST130 material. I didn't really expect that but was pleasantly surprised.

One thing I have considered is a dual PJ set up. I'd like to use my CRT with my current Stewart screen but then thought about building a REALLY big AT scope screen which I could use with a JVC digital down the road. I'm talking like a 13'-15' wide screen.

Mr. Loco used to have a set up where the screen would descend down from the ceiling (like a landing gear door) which was kind of interesting but I think it would pose problems for a screen the size I'm thinking. Probably just need to set up some type of removable hanging system.

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Tedd



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 156
Location: Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hear I bumped an old thread.... Wink

One nice thing about an AT screen wall, is it can be easily rebuilt, down the road.

Why would one need the screen to be hinged? BigmouthinDC on AVS did a really
minimalist front AT wall and hung the AT screen on three cleats, with a pair of lower
"bumper" posts. (killer thread "White Oaks Cinema build"). I think Big really moved
"the AT bar" with this new approach. Smile

The XD fabric is very nice. I've seen a RS65 on a 150" wide scope screen.



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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting.

I would say that XD is only OK, as far as AT screens go. AVScience has a new screen called V6 which looks like it is one of the best on the market for DIY. Mike says it is slightly better than Enlightor 4k, which I have considered the gold standard for the last five years.
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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
Interesting.

I would say that XD is only OK, as far as AT screens go. AVScience has a new screen called V6 which looks like it is one of the best on the market for DIY. Mike says it is slightly better than Enlightor 4k, which I have considered the gold standard for the last five years.


XD is still an excellent screen material. You just can't sit too close to it.

Funny. I read about the new screen material, but to say I have concerns is putting it mildly...

First, there's very much a "bandwagon" effect in the forums. Somebody who posts a lot, posts that they've found the latest/greatest holy grail in <insert theater component>, and suddenly the crowd has found the new thing everybody has to have to be in with the cool kids. This effect is especially powerful in the DIY screen crowd. Paints, laminates, stretchy-pants... They've run the gamut. Somebody posts, and all of a sudden, everybody is whipping out their credit cards to order the new thing. What bothers me is that the one thing most of these guys have in common is that they're primarily concerned with cheap. Best they can get for cheap, but still cheap. I've been there. There's still a piece of WilsonArt laminate hanging in my old room. Wink

Second, I trust hardly anybody anymore (no offense Wink). AVS (and really any forum) is just so hit-and-miss. One guy is a long-term well-known expert, while another really doesn't understand any of the science of the materials or why certain things look a certain way. Unfortunately, there's way too many people putting way too much trust in the former and not enough listening to the latter.

Next, we're reaching a point where several of these newer materials are pretty damn good, and some are really excellent. It just depends vastly on the application - screen size, viewing distance, projector, etc. Regardless, by any stretch (excuse the pun), Enlightor is an excellent material and is an outstanding performer. If it weren't, Dolby and Lucasfilm others (who are looking at this stuff very objectively, and using it in critical applications) wouldn't be using it. There's a reason Dolby is hiring Chris to build them screens, and not just ordering Spandex.

Finally, everybody is different. Their eyes are different. Their projectors are different. Their rooms and seating distances are different. ONE guy nit-picks that he can see a few sparkles because he's sitting 8.5 feet from his screen, creates doubt, and then everybody starts going, "Oh, gee - I never heard that before!" Never mind that it's a massive edge case because hardly anybody sits that close to their screen.

I'm not saying I don't trust Mike, but he does sell the material (and to be fair, so does Chris). But, I'll have to see these materials with my own eyes. I'm still a ways off from starting to build my room, but when I do, I'll definitely be evaluating several of the best options, and not trusting anybody else to make the decision for me.

Cheers,
SC
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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2016 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get what you are saying about their new screen. I have seen the pics and it does look good, but I agree I want to see it in person. It will be at Cedia in one of the demo rooms, so I plan on getting a good look at it. Mike says it has a little less sparkle than Enlightor. IIRC he says the difference isn't huge.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about XD.
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