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NEC XG bandwidth and signal quality improvement: DONE
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sun May 29, 2016 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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I could set the colors! It needed a bit of tweaking in the reference menu, since I ran out of G2 range (I could not set G2 low enough) so I had to adjust "bright bias" that shifts the range of the G2 range.



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projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After more than two years I can say this project is DONE!
_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Mon May 30, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't it just have been easier to get a Marquee from the very beginning? Laughing

But seriously, that's some impressive re-engineering that you've put into that. I know from experience,
even swapping around magnetics from one type to another can have unforeseen complications.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Wouldn't it just have been easier to get a Marquee from the very beginning? Laughing


In europe there isn't that much supply of CRT projectors of you can choose. BTW I had once a Marquee though only a 7500 (8500 without astig)in stock form I found that even a NEC PG xtra was better in every aspect except for fan noise. With the XG the bandwidth was worse than on the PG xtra which was quite strange, and mine is not a unique instance as I found.
While the NEC may have 8" tubes but it has far more powerful beam control both in focus and in convergence than a Maruqee ever dream of, comes with factory color filtering that is also not cheap on a Marquee.

In fact I have enough parts to build two more set of these boards (except for the VNB) but I hardly imagine anyone would spend even $300 for boards like this.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I noticed that the XGs use the Kanto-Denshi deflection and focus yokes, which are (by now) well known to be superior to the
Thomson yokes that Marquees come equipped with. Their focus control is better.

The choice of the Thomson yokes is, in my opinion, the one big glaring design choice error that was made when the Marquee was designed.

The engineers say that the Thomson yokes are "good enough" and maybe that's true for their military and commercial customers,
but one of my projects that I'm not actively working on at this precise moment is to adapt all the magnetics from a Barco 909 to the Marquee chassis. This requires modifiying the yokes and the driving circuitry as well.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps they used Thomson yokes because they had the original Marquee 9000 designed around the 40kV Thomson tubes, which later dumped, but all the "driver" boards were taylored to the Thomson yokes already, with new yokes they'd have to redesign most of the boards as well.

The XG is a nice machine otherwise (the XG ...0 sereies even have nice bandwidth by stock form, but those are only AC machines), they emply low capacitance tubes just like the LUGs, also the deflection yokes have very low inductance (you know it is a small yoke) therefore virtually there is no raster ringing not even at very high scanrates.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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thewolfman



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's great work! Those are my stock Marquee I sold you 2 years ago? Has it been that long already, time really flies away. If you want to make a deal on a set of MP Marquee VNB I could sell you them, you would only have to reattach one pin on one of them to have a full set. It's my old set used in any screenshots that I've made.

If you don't mind me asking, what are you using to take those screenshots in this thread?
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewolfman wrote:
That's great work! Those are my stock Marquee I sold you 2 years ago? Has it been that long already, time really flies away. If you want to make a deal on a set of MP Marquee VNB I could sell you them, you would only have to reattach one pin on one of them to have a full set. It's my old set used in any screenshots that I've made.

If you don't mind me asking, what are you using to take those screenshots in this thread?


Yep, these are the neckboards Smile
Thanks I'm not really into buying modfied boards.
I use a Pentax K100D camera.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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thewolfman



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
That's great work! Those are my stock Marquee I sold you 2 years ago? Has it been that long already, time really flies away. If you want to make a deal on a set of MP Marquee VNB I could sell you them, you would only have to reattach one pin on one of them to have a full set. It's my old set used in any screenshots that I've made.

If you don't mind me asking, what are you using to take those screenshots in this thread?


Yep, these are the neckboards Smile
Thanks I'm not really into buying modfied boards.
I use a Pentax K100D camera.


Why not? You plan on making them more than stock as times goes? I want to help you if I can and if you reconcider you know where to reach me.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewolfman wrote:
gjaky wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
That's great work! Those are my stock Marquee I sold you 2 years ago? Has it been that long already, time really flies away. If you want to make a deal on a set of MP Marquee VNB I could sell you them, you would only have to reattach one pin on one of them to have a full set. It's my old set used in any screenshots that I've made.

If you don't mind me asking, what are you using to take those screenshots in this thread?


Yep, these are the neckboards Smile
Thanks I'm not really into buying modfied boards.
I use a Pentax K100D camera.


Why not? You plan on making them more than stock as times goes? I want to help you if I can and if you reconcider you know where to reach me.


Modified boards not fitting well to my wallet Smile Besides, I did some (performance aimed) modification to the VNBs myself. And as you could see it does not show significant roll-off at 310MHz pixel clock (some distortion yes), but I use my projector at 1080i 96Hz anyway, that is only 138MHz pixel clock. These boards do that with ease, at some point I may play with the opamp, but other than that I can't imagine any other modification that could seriously affect performance.

Here are some highlights about this XG-VNB project:
-The neckboard output stage (+/-85V) is fed from a totally separate power supply from the projector.
-Each neckboard has an own local (low noise, high speed) regulator that feeds the low level analog circuits.
-The whole input stage is bypassed on the VNB, my interface board directly drives the output stage of the VNB.

In fact based on this design I had a faint idea to make a similar baughterboard specially made for Marquees, that would contain all the performance related circuits at one place, so the VIM could be ENTIRELY bypassed from the signal path, and the VIM would only supply the menu OSD signals to the neckboards, and do the input signal's sync processing. But I don't think anyone would want to wait another 2 year for a board like that. Smile

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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thewolfman



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1304
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gjaky wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
gjaky wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
That's great work! Those are my stock Marquee I sold you 2 years ago? Has it been that long already, time really flies away. If you want to make a deal on a set of MP Marquee VNB I could sell you them, you would only have to reattach one pin on one of them to have a full set. It's my old set used in any screenshots that I've made.

If you don't mind me asking, what are you using to take those screenshots in this thread?


Yep, these are the neckboards Smile
Thanks I'm not really into buying modfied boards.
I use a Pentax K100D camera.


Why not? You plan on making them more than stock as times goes? I want to help you if I can and if you reconcider you know where to reach me.


Modified boards not fitting well to my wallet Smile Besides, I did some (performance aimed) modification to the VNBs myself. And as you could see it does not show significant roll-off at 310MHz pixel clock (some distortion yes), but I use my projector at 1080i 96Hz anyway, that is only 138MHz pixel clock. These boards do that with ease, at some point I may play with the opamp, but other than that I can't imagine any other modification that could seriously affect performance.

Here are some highlights about this XG-VNB project:
-The neckboard output stage (+/-85V) is fed from a totally separate power supply from the projector.
-Each neckboard has an own local (low noise, high speed) regulator that feeds the low level analog circuits.
-The whole input stage is bypassed on the VNB, my interface board directly drives the output stage of the VNB.

In fact based on this design I had a faint idea to make a similar baughterboard specially made for Marquees, that would contain all the performance related circuits at one place, so the VIM could be ENTIRELY bypassed from the signal path, and the VIM would only supply the menu OSD signals to the neckboards, and do the input signal's sync processing. But I don't think anyone would want to wait another 2 year for a board like that. Smile


That's all above my head, but learned that NEC has the best convergence of them all, so if you had a set of MP VNB that would help (?) and be interesting to see how that would pan out (knowing you now know how to do it).
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the "original" Marquee was way before the 8000 and 9000. I have seen references to Marquees with model numbers as low as 6500. I know there was a 7000 and a 7500 as well. Plus of course there was the 8110, which was an 8500 with a few limitations. (No astig, no CMM, scanrate limited to 135KHz)

My first Marquee was an 8000. It served me well until my 9500LC upgrade.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Actually, the "original" Marquee was way before the 8000 and 9000. I have seen references to Marquees with model numbers as low as 6500. I know there was a 7000 and a 7500 as well. Plus of course there was the 8110, which was an 8500 with a few limitations. (No astig, no CMM, scanrate limited to 135KHz)

My first Marquee was an 8000. It served me well until my 9500LC upgrade.


Nah, I've seen the (1997) 6500 in person (and know the owner), and myself had a (1995) 7500. both were based on the 8500 design, and neither had CMM and Astig boards installed. What was interesting that the 7500 had a limited scanrate down to 110kHz, while the 6500 I've seen had not, it could go all the way up to 130kHz. But the 6500 did not have multi language menu as I remember.

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I once had an 8000 with the fixed, non-hinged heatsink. If I recall correctly, it had a build date of 1994, or maybe it was 1993.


I got that one right from VDC's dumpster. I got a tip-off that it was there so there I was at sunrise with a few tools in hand, taking out the CRT assemblies first, so I could take it out and to my car in four pieces. I may be strong enough to carry an 8000 for a short distance but I wasn't going to wreck myself trying to pull it out of a dumpster in one piece!

I've always assumed that the models with model numbers under 8000 were older. But I don't actually know that for sure.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just as a sidenote. I could get my hands on a ton of XG-1100 parts. These use a different video circuit design than the newer XGs, based more on the older PG xtra. I converted my spare XG751 to XG110 with all the required board swaps, and I must admit the result is quite amazing.
Using my modified $18 chinese HDMI converter it seems the XG1100 can resolve 1080P 72Hz without problem, as far as we talk about bandwidth! I even went a step further and checked 1080P 85Hz (I know it is a pointless resolution), at there there was some roll off in the 1:1 pattern, but not that bad at all from a STOCK projector.

XG-1100 1080P 72Hz
XG-1100 1080P 85Hz

Ironic is that I got these boards now for the cost of the shipping and took 1 hour to install to the projector. Too bad this isn't happend two years ago, when I considered to start my XG-VNB project Smile Not that I am dissatisfied with my XG-VNB results, but boy, it was a painful work I have to admit!

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you should decide to get those XG parts, I'd be interested in getting a set of the magnetics off you. Focus AND deflection yokes, and CPC ring sets, too.

I want them for experimental purposes. I'll pay a reasonable price for a set.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
If you should decide to get those XG parts, I'd be interested in getting a set of the magnetics off you. Focus AND deflection yokes, and CPC ring sets, too.

I want them for experimental purposes. I'll pay a reasonable price for a set.


Did you know the tubes in the NEC have "thin neck" (30mm)?

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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cmjohnson



Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 5180
Location: Buried under G90s


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Potentially they may still be of interest depending on the coil diameters after you remove the shells.

Yes, they would be tested on "regular" P19 series tubes. If they won't fit on those tube necks, please ignore my expression of interest earlier.
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gjaky



Joined: 05 Jun 2010
Posts: 2623
Location: Budapest, Hungary


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Potentially they may still be of interest depending on the coil diameters after you remove the shells.

Yes, they would be tested on "regular" P19 series tubes. If they won't fit on those tube necks, please ignore my expression of interest earlier.


Well CPC and deflection coil is obviously out of question they won't fit on a P19. I have to look up the focus coil but I'd not think it use a large magnet because this is exactly against to the concept of the narrow neck thing ie. to have better controll on the beam.
The XG deflection coil is some remarkable stuff by the way, with split H-DEF windings each with only 80uH inductance, not a surprise XGs do not suffer from raster ringing even at very high scanrates. This of course has a flip side so you'll hardly can find a matching yoke for converting an XG to 9".

_________________
projectors in the past : NEC 6-9PG xtra, Electrohome Marquee 6-7500, NEC XG 1351 LC ( with super modified Electrohome VNB neckboard !!!)
current: VDC Marquee 9500LC
The MOD: VNB-DB
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Tim in Phoenix



Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 4171
Location: Phoenix


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cmjohnson wrote:
Actually, the "original" Marquee was way before the 8000 and 9000. I have seen references to Marquees with model numbers as low as 6500. I know there was a 7000 and a 7500 as well. Plus of course there was the 8110, which was an 8500 with a few limitations. (No astig, no CMM, scanrate limited to 135KHz)

My first Marquee was an 8000. It served me well until my 9500LC upgrade.


Ahem

6500, 7000, and 7500 were export only versions, some to Asia, that came out after 8500/9500. The South Koreans rebadged some as "DreamVision". There were six or seven companies rebadging Marquees at various times; Vidikron, Madrigal, Accurate Imaging, and a few others.
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