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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:57 pm Post subject: Windows 7 (and other) room correction |
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So, my fight with a couple of hardware equalizers has ended up with nasty slider problems that make my sound awful. It'll require some messing with to fix it all.
First, I was trying to find a software 5.1 equalizer that would hook windows output so anything I played would be EQ'd correctly. There are lots of windows equalizers... but none that do anything but stereo, that I can find.
In my wanderings, I found out that Windows 7 has built in room correction - which, by nature, handles per-channel EQ as well as reflections.
Has anyone used it? Is it any good? It's always seemed to me that room correction ends up with things sounding bizarre and squishy, but maybe things are different now - or maybe the built-in type stuff I've heard is just crap. I haven't used one that uses a mic to do the calibration, for instance - just stuff that makes assumptions based on room size and speaker placement.
So: Has anyone used the Win7 version? Any other versions?
Some of them just make some filter you have to apply to your files, which is pretty useless. But apparently there are also directshow things that hook in and run the filters... I'm not sure exactly what's useful and what isn't. Advice appreciated!
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Posts: 1684 Location: Northern Virginia
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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As far as I can tell, Duff just works for stereo, requires you to play and record things separately, and also requires that you apply the filter to the audio files themselves... so, not really useful for HT.
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CRT_Ben
Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Posts: 1684 Location: Northern Virginia
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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perisoft wrote: |
As far as I can tell, Duff just works for stereo, requires you to play and record things separately, and also requires that you apply the filter to the audio files themselves... so, not really useful for HT. |
Epic fail for Duff I guess...sorry, I tried
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akajester
Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 934 Location: Wisconsin
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I've never heard of this in windows 7. I'd like to know more. Do you have a link to your findings?
thanks!
dale
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akajester
Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 934 Location: Wisconsin
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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A dj friend of mine uses Breakaway Audio equalizer and it's really nice. I have a feeling it's stereo only though.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5321
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Link Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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Found this with a google search over at the A site.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1168448
It actually references Windows Vista features I think...
Here is the information from the Windows Blog original referenced in the A site thread:
http://windowsteamblog.com/windows/archive/b/windowsvista/archive/2006/08/24/450038.aspx
Quote: | Room Correction
Configuring audio in a home theater can take a good deal of time to get just right. Dialog and sound effects should sound as impressive as possible. For this purpose, Windows Vista now features Room Correction processing, which will find a "sweet spot" for the listener. The settings optimize the listening experience for a particular location in the room—for example, the center cushion of your couch—by automatically calculating a combination of delay, frequency response, and gain adjustments. This technology works differently than similar features in high-end receivers since it better accounts for the way the human ear processes sound. With this advance, sound is better matched to the on-screen image. This feature is also useful for users who place their desktop speakers in nonstandard locations.
Room correction requires the use of a microphone to calibrate its settings. The microphone is placed at the location the user intends to sit, and then the user activates a wizard that measures the room response. Using a set of specifically designed tones from each loudspeaker in turn, the computer calculates the distance, frequency, response and overall gain of each loudspeaker from the listening location at the microphone. This is applicable to both stereo and multi-channel systems. Once these measurements have been made, they are stored as a profile. This profile is used by the room correction DSP to correct the delay, overall gain, and frequency balance between loudspeaker locations so that the listening area will have a good stereo and multi-channel soundstage with improved timbre, envelopment, and front and back sensation compared to the uncorrected system.
If the user has a good microphone, the room and loudspeaker correction will automatically attempt to flatten the frequency response of each channel to compensate for relative differences in each channel, as well as any deficiencies in the frequency response from each channel.
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And a picture of what the settings menu looks like...
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:25 am Post subject: |
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I realize that blog post from Microsoft is about four years old, and that Windows was doing with room correction was pretty nice compared to what most AVR's had at the time, which was mostly just level-matching. But, that was four years ago. Now, I can't see how it's comparable to what you'd get from even an entry-level AVR from Onkyo or Denon with Audyssey 2EQ. I mean, an Onkyo HT-RC260 is $330 at Amazon. I know $330 isn't exactly chump change, but is it really worth all the hassle anymore screwing around with this plugin, that codec, this driver, that application, this piece of open source software, that filter, this utility, that script... And on and on and on and on?
SC
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 12:57 am Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: | I realize that blog post from Microsoft is about four years old, and that Windows was doing with room correction was pretty nice compared to what most AVR's had at the time, which was mostly just level-matching. But, that was four years ago. Now, I can't see how it's comparable to what you'd get from even an entry-level AVR from Onkyo or Denon with Audyssey 2EQ. I mean, an Onkyo HT-RC260 is $330 at Amazon. I know $330 isn't exactly chump change, but is it really worth all the hassle anymore screwing around with this plugin, that codec, this driver, that application, this piece of open source software, that filter, this utility, that script... And on and on and on and on?
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I've spent under $800 cash on EVERYTHING in my theater - projector, carpet, paint, lights, furniture, rug, speakers, subs, amps, computer. It's taken a lonnng time and some perks (particularly on the computer side from work) but I can't spend $300 for better room response. Most of you guys live in an order-of-magnitude-different world than I do - I pay myself enough money to survive and raise my son. The rest goes back into my business. When I get my business to the right point, I'll reward myself with the slick and sane way to do my fun stuff; until then - it's a challenge, I learn, and I get some satisfaction out of having a HT as good as most $15k ones for under a grand.
Also, it gets my post count up. AR is pulling ahead every day, you know.
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akajester
Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 934 Location: Wisconsin
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:09 am Post subject: |
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wow, I had no idea that windows had this type of correction built in. I'm curious to try it out and see what it can do! Thanks for the info. It doesn't cost me anything (but time) to try it out.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 2:57 am Post subject: |
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akajester wrote: | wow, I had no idea that windows had this type of correction built in. I'm curious to try it out and see what it can do! Thanks for the info. It doesn't cost me anything (but time) to try it out. |
For some reason, my HTPC doesn't have room correction as an option for analog output. My laptop doesn't; my desktop at work (realtek) does. Odd.
I'll mess around a bit, but that might be out. Still, there seem to be some other potential solutions... I'll keep looking.
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perisoft
Joined: 29 Aug 2007 Posts: 2920 Location: Ithaca, NY
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Link Posted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 3:27 am Post subject: |
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And here's another question to audio guys: I've got a relatively beefy - but old (2001 or so) - Technics AVR. It's rated at 100WPC RMS and can drive the two front 12" Cerwin Vegas fairly cleanly probably 5db past the "f*ck this is loud" point.
Right now I use it only for the fronts, and use different amps for the center / surrounds, going on the theory that loading each amp less will result in better quality for each pair of speakers. (It also lets me set levels independently more easily, and do analog EQ).
Would shifting the center/surround load back to the technics (so I can use digital output and thus gain access to apparently digital-only DRC) significantly affect the THD / etc on the other channels? I'm running a full range front but smaller (2x4" but 100-watt-handling) surrounds.
The counter-argument, of course, is that the quality of the amps I'm using for the center/surrounds may be worse than the hit I'd take for stretching the technics, even if I did take a hit... I'm using some random Sony for the center and another random Sony for the surrounds (though those just tend to play reverb, echoes and "shhhh" and "zing" anyway).
Thoughts?
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Francesco
Joined: 08 Jul 2010 Posts: 64 Location: Italy
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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From what I gathered you need at least a Microphone for calibration. This is the one everybody seems to recommend.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000HT4RSA/curtpalmecrtp-20
You also need a Pre-amp/Power Supply this USB one is pretty cool.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VZ8WC2/curtpalmecrtp-20
I've always wanted to try this myself. But I have about 20% loss of hearing in one ear and fairly bad Tinnitus so I question if it's worth the time to doing a top notch audio calibration. I've also never seen a simple guide that walks you though all the steps...All the information seems very convoluted and hard to follow.
Mike
_________________ Doing HD since the last century!
Last edited by MikeEby on Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Francesco
Joined: 08 Jul 2010 Posts: 64 Location: Italy
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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I have a behringer xenyx 502 mixer with phantom power: it's cheap and works well. My mic is a ECM8000, it's behringer too.
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MikeEby
Joined: 24 Jun 2007 Posts: 5238 Location: Osceola, Indiana
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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If you using ReClock as your audio render you need to not use WASAPI exclusive mode...Because it bypass the Windows Mixer. I also assume you need to use Analog out, I don't think SPDIF will work...I'm not sure about that, is that what you mean by direct wire Francesco? Your link doesn't seem to work for me.
Mike
_________________ Doing HD since the last century!
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Francesco
Joined: 08 Jul 2010 Posts: 64 Location: Italy
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Link Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Mike
Directwire is a feature of ESI drivers (available only to ESI and AudioTrak soundcards afaik) which allows you to route audio streams between different applications. This enables a world of possibilities, like routing audio signal from multimedia players (ie. WMP) to plugins like equalizers, bass managers, filters and so on. Think of it like an Audissey system embedded in your HTPC, totally configurable according to your needs. This is no easy set-up, but results seem to be wonderful.
You'll need to measure your room's response to each system channel (main speakers, center, etc etc), create the appropriate filters and then put those filters "between your player and the soundcard's analog outs" and this is where directwire comes into play... excuse my english, I hope you understand what I mean.
You can't do this with all soundcards, so I'll buy an AudioTrak 7.1 Hi-Fi which has analog outs and directwire drivers.
Hope this is of some interest... for me it's a great feature.
Bye
Francesco
PS I fixed the link, take a look at those before-after graphs!
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pedcam1356
Joined: 01 Aug 2015 Posts: 1
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Link Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:11 am Post subject: |
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HI Im NEW HERE just wanted to ask since its very hard to keep it enabled the room correction software from Microsoft is there any other program that does the same thing i had it once and never heard surround better
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