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Is JVCs X700R with DI a CRT killer?
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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thewolfman wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
The official X700 and X500 threads on AVS are very interesting to read from time to time. Sometimes you get your hopes up, sometimes it takes you down a notch (X500). But there is a guy who use to have NEC XG, I think, who makes very honest and down to earth statements about his new toy. I think it's a X500, and that it's NOT as dark as CRT, but very close with CI. Either way, it doesn't concern me at all, as I would have to sell everything I own to get a X700 which would be my choice. There's even a guy with X900.. Smile

Anyhow, all that reading, made me all to aware of how much I need curtains to block out any sort of light, and that they should be black. There's a hell of a lot to be gained with black felt surrounding the screen and a few feet backwards from screen on the floor. I only have simple shades, and even in the middle of the night in the winter there is still some light coming in, so I have a lot gain on my end as well.


Go get one.. Sell your Marquee to me... Wink


I might put out an ad when it's finished just to see of anyone is interested in it. But I think I'm the last living Swedish CRT fanatic so it dies with me. Last time I made a count I was about 4000 $ in the hole. In fact that's what I want for it. No one would pay that so I'm stuck with CRT for a very long time. YOU should sell your JVC, to get top dollar, and get a new JVC. Now, that's a good idea! Smile


Well for what im told the older non e-shift models actually have better ansi contrast, and i prefer the RS50 over my G90, so guess what will have to go first.?
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thewolfman



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1309
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
The official X700 and X500 threads on AVS are very interesting to read from time to time. Sometimes you get your hopes up, sometimes it takes you down a notch (X500). But there is a guy who use to have NEC XG, I think, who makes very honest and down to earth statements about his new toy. I think it's a X500, and that it's NOT as dark as CRT, but very close with CI. Either way, it doesn't concern me at all, as I would have to sell everything I own to get a X700 which would be my choice. There's even a guy with X900.. Smile

Anyhow, all that reading, made me all to aware of how much I need curtains to block out any sort of light, and that they should be black. There's a hell of a lot to be gained with black felt surrounding the screen and a few feet backwards from screen on the floor. I only have simple shades, and even in the middle of the night in the winter there is still some light coming in, so I have a lot gain on my end as well.


Go get one.. Sell your Marquee to me... Wink


I might put out an ad when it's finished just to see of anyone is interested in it. But I think I'm the last living Swedish CRT fanatic so it dies with me. Last time I made a count I was about 4000 $ in the hole. In fact that's what I want for it. No one would pay that so I'm stuck with CRT for a very long time. YOU should sell your JVC, to get top dollar, and get a new JVC. Now, that's a good idea! Smile


Well for what im told the older non e-shift models actually have better ansi contrast, and i prefer the RS50 over my G90, so guess what will have to go first.?


Ok. I wonder what happens next year when all the other brands come out with their 4K models.. and if they do.. will it kill the market all together for CRT? I assume they would price themselves between X700 and Sony 600 (4K) and push down this years segment (X700) to a more affordable price closer to 5000 $?

Add another year to that and you have 4K pj for 7000 $ in 2016?

Who cares.. I can't afford it.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Well for what im told the older non e-shift models actually have better ansi contrast

Hmm… That's interesting. Every year, the JVC projectors get incrementally just a little bit better. They're generally pretty small, incremental improvements, but to my knowledge, not once has anything gotten worse over the last 5-7 years. Who told you this and how did they know?

There is most certainly a slight loss in MTF between non-e-Shift, and e-Shift; clearly, the unprocessed image will be slightly sharper. But, I can't think of any reason that e-Shift itself would cause a reduction in ANSI contrast, and I certainly haven't read about ANSI contrast decreasing from an older model to a newer model.

The one thing I can think of that could decrease ANSI contrast would be significant optical changes. Perhaps this latest generation of DI models changed things enough to decrease contrast… But, that would be only this latest generation and wouldn't have anything to do with e-Shift.

Cheers,
SC
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A JVC will be my next PJ for sure.

Nashou

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Well for what im told the older non e-shift models actually have better ansi contrast

Hmm… That's interesting. Every year, the JVC projectors get incrementally just a little bit better. They're generally pretty small, incremental improvements, but to my knowledge, not once has anything gotten worse over the last 5-7 years. Who told you this and how did they know?

There is most certainly a slight loss in MTF between non-e-Shift, and e-Shift; clearly, the unprocessed image will be slightly sharper. But, I can't think of any reason that e-Shift itself would cause a reduction in ANSI contrast, and I certainly haven't read about ANSI contrast decreasing from an older model to a newer model.

The one thing I can think of that could decrease ANSI contrast would be significant optical changes. Perhaps this latest generation of DI models changed things enough to decrease contrast… But, that would be only this latest generation and wouldn't have anything to do with e-Shift.

Cheers,
SC


From what i been told its the optical path needet to make the e-shift who reduces the contrast, i was told by that norwegian guy who had the Sony 4K machine, and have had whatever top line digital machine for the last many years.

He claimed they measured it, and it was quite vissible.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
From what i been told its the optical path needet to make the e-shift who reduces the contrast, i was told by that norwegian guy who had the Sony 4K machine, and have had whatever top line digital machine for the last many years.

He claimed they measured it, and it was quite vissible.


Wow, that's surprising. I suppose since the e-Shift device is an added element in the optical path, it could increase light bounce and decrease ANSI contrast. Still, they're on the third generation of projector and third iteration of e-Shift since it was introduced. On/off has gotten better with every generation, and every generation gets reviewed pretty thoroughly. I'd be very surprised if the ANSI contrast was noticeably superior on my $3,495 MSRP RS45 to an RS65 w/e-Shift at three times the price.

It's also worth mentioning that even if the ANSI is degraded from a non-e-Shift machine to an e-Shift machine, even the e-Shift machine would have far superior ANSI to CRT. That's the one demonstrably terrible CRT image quality parameter.

Everything is a compromise of one sort or another, I guess.

SC
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed May 28, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
From what i been told its the optical path needet to make the e-shift who reduces the contrast, i was told by that norwegian guy who had the Sony 4K machine, and have had whatever top line digital machine for the last many years.

He claimed they measured it, and it was quite vissible.


Wow, that's surprising. I suppose since the e-Shift device is an added element in the optical path, it could increase light bounce and decrease ANSI contrast. Still, they're on the third generation of projector and third iteration of e-Shift since it was introduced. On/off has gotten better with every generation, and every generation gets reviewed pretty thoroughly. I'd be very surprised if the ANSI contrast was noticeably superior on my $3,495 MSRP RS45 to an RS65 w/e-Shift at three times the price.

It's also worth mentioning that even if the ANSI is degraded from a non-e-Shift machine to an e-Shift machine, even the e-Shift machine would have far superior ANSI to CRT. That's the one demonstrably terrible CRT image quality parameter.

Everything is a compromise of one sort or another, I guess.

SC


Nothing is perfect, and most of the time we trade one thing for another, i still need to experience a full win win situation.

Im in love with all my Moddet Marquee do good, but at the moment it just dont seems to be a thing that just goes with CRT, as i wrote, ill prefer my RS50 any day over the Sony G90 i have playing now.

And i need to feed my JVC from my oppo 83 true my DVDO VP50 who convert the color space to RGB, nothing else, that gives me some feeling of dept and realism i cant find no matter what else i have connected to it. Weird. Rolling Eyes
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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewolfman wrote:
The official X700 and X500 threads on AVS are very interesting to read from time to time. Sometimes you get your hopes up, sometimes it takes you down a notch (X500). But there is a guy who use to have NEC XG, I think, who makes very honest and down to earth statements about his new toy. I think it's a X500, and that it's NOT as dark as CRT, but very close with CI. Either way, it doesn't concern me at all, as I would have to sell everything I own to get a X700 which would be my choice. There's even a guy with X900.. Smile

Anyhow, all that reading, made me all to aware of how much I need curtains to block out any sort of light, and that they should be black. There's a hell of a lot to be gained with black felt surrounding the screen and a few feet backwards from screen on the floor. I only have simple shades, and even in the middle of the night in the winter there is still some light coming in, so I have a lot gain on my end as well.


I read that. If his comment is accurate (I am not doubting him, but it is a sample size of 1), then I could live with it. He basically said that in a pitch black room you might be able to see a shadow of someone walking in front of you whereas the CRT would be totally black.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator


Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
I read that. If his comment is accurate (I am not doubting him, but it is a sample size of 1), then I could live with it. He basically said that in a pitch black room you might be able to see a shadow of someone walking in front of you whereas the CRT would be totally black.

I would guess that's about right. I'm very happy with the black level on my RS45, and the new projectors are what, three generations beyond that? Yeah, I can stick my hand up and see a shadow on the screen to remind myself it's not completely black, but there's no reason to do that.

Here's the thing: I've got almost 900 hours on my RS45, and I still haven't started opening the iris; I'm still running it on the smallest setting, and it's still plenty bright on my 8-foot wide 1.3-gain screen. I could easily go a little larger, and a little less gain, and black levels would improve even more. In fact, I could go to a 3m/10-foot wide 1.0-gain AT screen, and still have plenty of light, and have even better black levels.

Unless fade-to-blacks are more important to you than everything else, and then only if you have a 100% light-controlled room, black level is essentially a non-issue at this point, with JVC, at least.

I'm anxious to see what happens at CEDIA in September. Seems like just a few months ago I was watching the new models, and now we're four months away again. I'm getting old!

Cheers,
SC
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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
Posts: 11240
Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spanky Ham wrote:
He basically said that in a pitch black room you might be able to see a shadow of someone walking in front of you whereas the CRT would be totally black.

And if you're running your CRT like that, there's a very good chance you're crushing shadow detail.
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thewolfman



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1309
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I sell my Yamaha NS777 main speakers, 4 NS555 for surround, and my 11.1 Yamaha receiver, but hang on to my SVS PC12 subwoofer and HECO Celan cinema 3 center, and set a side 500$ for 8 months straight, I could buy an X500 for 5600 $ as I found one on Ebay in the UK. No VAT needed from there. I have crap speakers and a second Yamaha receiver as well to get by. 8 months later and it will be cheaper still, probably. As long as the bass is there I'm fine with any sh*t speakers for the rest, with the exception for the center channel. I want 3D and this could be it. Either way, I already bought everything I need and could sell some to finance this, or just keep saving for a decision later. But I would have to travel across the country, to Stockholm from Umeċ, for a look in a dedicated home cinema shop, but would gladly do so as I have relatives living there to.

Feel free to post what X500/X700 goes for around the world now and then to keep interesting, it's bound to go down as times go by and sometimes there are one-off deals that are really great.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-JVC-DLA-X500R-X500-3D-HOME-THEATRE-FULL-HD-D-ILA-4K-PROJECTOR-BLACK-X-500-/271491755588?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Projectors&hash=item3f362b6e44
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thewolfman wrote:
If I sell my Yamaha NS777 main speakers, 4 NS555 for surround, and my 11.1 Yamaha receiver, but hang on to my SVS PC12 subwoofer and HECO Celan cinema 3 center, and set a side 500$ for 8 months straight, I could buy an X500 for 5600 $ as I found one on Ebay in the UK. No VAT needed from there. I have crap speakers and a second Yamaha receiver as well to get by. 8 months later and it will be cheaper still, probably. As long as the bass is there I'm fine with any sh*t speakers for the rest, with the exception for the center channel. I want 3D and this could be it. Either way, I already bought everything I need and could sell some to finance this, or just keep saving for a decision later. But I would have to travel across the country, to Stockholm from Umeċ, for a look in a dedicated home cinema shop, but would gladly do so as I have relatives living there to.

Feel free to post what X500/X700 goes for around the world now and then to keep interesting, it's bound to go down as times go by and sometimes there are one-off deals that are really great.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-JVC-DLA-X500R-X500-3D-HOME-THEATRE-FULL-HD-D-ILA-4K-PROJECTOR-BLACK-X-500-/271491755588?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Projectors&hash=item3f362b6e44


Ill recomend you to buy from a dealer who you are sure get the projector true the official source.

If you buy from ebay, as i did, in UK, and finds out they imported it from USA you are just f*ck*** if you get any problems or have doubts about anything.

JVC don have as some a global service, where JVC care about those who buy thair stuff. If they get a chance, they will just count the money you payed and let you take care of yourself.

Buy from a store with good reputation, who you trust when you buy JVC, so you never have to handle any isues directly with JVC.

Dont know about the new models, but if it was me buying one, i would want a user manual who explains in details the CMS system, and ask what is tolerances of convergence, some day you will wonder if its not just a bit to much off, if u ask they will tell you to send it back, and they will check, and if they find it ok, you will pay for the shipping both ways and the time to check it.

Find out if the tolerance is ½ pixel off or 1 pixel off or 2 pixels off. I never found out. They simply dont want to tell.

Ohh and try ask about tolerances for gamma/ gray scale drift, maybe they can tell you as when you buy a resistor.. 50ppm or 1000ppm.. just get some facts. Dont just run along with the colored sales material who promise you gold and happy ever after.
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thewolfman



Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 1309
Location: Sweden


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 29, 2014 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
thewolfman wrote:
If I sell my Yamaha NS777 main speakers, 4 NS555 for surround, and my 11.1 Yamaha receiver, but hang on to my SVS PC12 subwoofer and HECO Celan cinema 3 center, and set a side 500$ for 8 months straight, I could buy an X500 for 5600 $ as I found one on Ebay in the UK. No VAT needed from there. I have crap speakers and a second Yamaha receiver as well to get by. 8 months later and it will be cheaper still, probably. As long as the bass is there I'm fine with any sh*t speakers for the rest, with the exception for the center channel. I want 3D and this could be it. Either way, I already bought everything I need and could sell some to finance this, or just keep saving for a decision later. But I would have to travel across the country, to Stockholm from Umeċ, for a look in a dedicated home cinema shop, but would gladly do so as I have relatives living there to.

Feel free to post what X500/X700 goes for around the world now and then to keep interesting, it's bound to go down as times go by and sometimes there are one-off deals that are really great.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-JVC-DLA-X500R-X500-3D-HOME-THEATRE-FULL-HD-D-ILA-4K-PROJECTOR-BLACK-X-500-/271491755588?pt=UK_Computing_Sound_Vision_Projectors&hash=item3f362b6e44


Ill recomend you to buy from a dealer who you are sure get the projector true the official source.

If you buy from ebay, as i did, in UK, and finds out they imported it from USA you are just f*ck*** if you get any problems or have doubts about anything.

JVC don have as some a global service, where JVC care about those who buy thair stuff. If they get a chance, they will just count the money you payed and let you take care of yourself.

Buy from a store with good reputation, who you trust when you buy JVC, so you never have to handle any isues directly with JVC.

Dont know about the new models, but if it was me buying one, i would want a user manual who explains in details the CMS system, and ask what is tolerances of convergence, some day you will wonder if its not just a bit to much off, if u ask they will tell you to send it back, and they will check, and if they find it ok, you will pay for the shipping both ways and the time to check it.

Find out if the tolerance is ½ pixel off or 1 pixel off or 2 pixels off. I never found out. They simply dont want to tell.

Ohh and try ask about tolerances for gamma/ gray scale drift, maybe they can tell you as when you buy a resistor.. 50ppm or 1000ppm.. just get some facts. Dont just run along with the colored sales material who promise you gold and happy ever after.




I heard you both, about the warranty and the risks involved, and I'm sure your right. Anyway, saving up for 50% will be a long road, and by the time I have a decent amount of loose cash, Swedish prices may have dropped considerably so I can get it at home. But I will remember the warnings and have it in mind.

As a side note: Installing a new blue tube all evening long, got me a very blurry blue image as a result, makes me want to have a digital even more. Sometimes I just want to turn on the damn thing and watch something. I'm going to have to reset everything and start all over someday.


Last edited by thewolfman on Fri May 30, 2014 12:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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Spanky Ham



Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central


PostLink    Posted: Fri May 30, 2014 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ecrabb wrote:
Spanky Ham wrote:
I read that. If his comment is accurate (I am not doubting him, but it is a sample size of 1), then I could live with it. He basically said that in a pitch black room you might be able to see a shadow of someone walking in front of you whereas the CRT would be totally black.

I would guess that's about right. I'm very happy with the black level on my RS45, and the new projectors are what, three generations beyond that? Yeah, I can stick my hand up and see a shadow on the screen to remind myself it's not completely black, but there's no reason to do that.

Here's the thing: I've got almost 900 hours on my RS45, and I still haven't started opening the iris; I'm still running it on the smallest setting, and it's still plenty bright on my 8-foot wide 1.3-gain screen. I could easily go a little larger, and a little less gain, and black levels would improve even more. In fact, I could go to a 3m/10-foot wide 1.0-gain AT screen, and still have plenty of light, and have even better black levels.

Unless fade-to-blacks are more important to you than everything else, and then only if you have a 100% light-controlled room, black level is essentially a non-issue at this point, with JVC, at least.



LOL and a lot of people around here judge the JVCs based off a quick viewing of the first or second year models (RS1 or RS2). Wink
Quote:

I'm anxious to see what happens at CEDIA in September. Seems like just a few months ago I was watching the new models, and now we're four months away again. I'm getting old!

Cheers,
SC

See you there! Thumbs Up


garyfritz wrote:
Spanky Ham wrote:
He basically said that in a pitch black room you might be able to see a shadow of someone walking in front of you whereas the CRT would be totally black.

And if you're running your CRT like that, there's a very good chance you're crushing shadow detail.


Yep, unless you are running a gamma board. Without questioning him, I don't know if he is or not, but it is basically moot as he has moved on.
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