CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[ecrabb]

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As some of you may know, I started a thread awhile back about building better speakers. First a bit of background.

I finished my room with an AVR and THX Select LCRs - M&K 750 THX's. I added room treatments and was weak on power. I added separate prosound amps so the mains were then good, but then the bass was weak. I built big DIY subs wich are awesome, but now the mains are weak. They're fine at modest levels, but push it a little in my treated room and they start sounding a little compressed dynamically.

So, I'd like a little more sensitivity, but more importantly a "bigger" sound. I like some of the compression driver-based designs, but I'm not thrilled with the big boxes... Not because I have anything against a big box, but just because my room is a little tight and it would push the speakers even closer to the sidewall than they already are.

I also moved to digital last year, and have been thinking about a little larger scope screen. I LOVE audio-transparent scope. To me, its the pinnacle of recreating the best part of a commercial theater at home, especially realistic dialog coming right out of the screen and scope being larger than 16:9 like it should be. But unless I want a much smaller 16:9 screen, scope is a non-starter and AT is just plain impossible as I don't have any depth to play with. Unless... I went to an inwall for my mains.

Inwalls would allow me to go to like a 9 or 9.5-foot wide scope screen for a bigger scope image, a slightly smaller 16:9 than I have now (which would be perfect for better sight lines), AND audio-transparent... Which would be really awesome.

Most people dismiss inwalls, but from what I can tell I'm not sure if its fair, as I'd imagine most people's opinions are based in small, inexpensive, boxless designs for "living room" type installs. There are very expensive, very high-end, large, sensitive designs from companies like Klipsch, RBH, James, Atlantic Tech, Paradigm, Triad, Totem, and others. These aren't half-assed designs; some of them look very serious. Since i camt judt write a check for almost $10k for their high-end inwall LCRs, I would be trying to duplicate a larger high-performance design as DIY.

Anybody heard any of the high-end inwalls and how they sound?

Thx,
SC

[Nashou66]

I use the Phase Technology PC in wall series for my main listening/living area and my bedroom. I am a huge lover of PhaseTech. They invented the Soft Dome tweeter and were the major manufacturer of other speaker companies products.

I have my whole house set up with the grills and have been buying the speakers on ebay for much cheaper than the full price of up to 500 each. The top of the lines ones with the rigid foam piston drivers.

http://www.phasetech.com/index.php/products/speaker-series/custom-installation-in-wall-speaker-series/




Athanasios

[416ray4538]

I like big sound too and IMO big sound required big speakers. I use old style PA speakers 1970's design. Old technology is not an issue when it comes to sound; the laws of physics haven't changed in a long time.

[ecrabb]

The laws of physics haven't changed, but acoustics are certainly better understood now. Materials, engineering, and manufacturing have also gotten much better. With computers and software, a home theater enthusiast can do things even physicists or acoustics experts couldn't do in the 70's. Things like spectral decay plots to measure RT60, and finite impulse response (FIR) filters based on very precise measurements and acoustic modeling.

That said, like I said before... I have nothing against big speakers - I would do that if I could. I was even considering some high-performance ~1 cuft two-ways with compression drivers... But, my room - especially my front stage - is very tight.

Besides, two 8-inch drivers have almost as much piston area as a 12" driver, and you can certainly get a 1-cuft box (or bigger) into wall.

Still, i looked at some photos of my framing the other night, and I think I'd have to do way too much demolition than I want to do, so I'm probably back to big boxes again.

SC

[Nashou66]

Steve I really thing you should look at the Phase techs. All you do is cut out the hole and the grills mount in the wall with some fasteners that are built into the grill frames. Super easy. And They sound really good and those larger ones have a very good frequency response,as well as movable tweeters to fine tune the sound. If I had an AT screen I would go that route myself. Who knows it might be the next upgrade once I finish the Video portion.

Frequency Response: 32 Hz – 22 kHz (+/- 3 dB)
Sensitivity: 91 dB
Impedance: 8 Ω
Recommended Amplifier Power: 20 – 250 W
Dimensions: Height: 21.5″
Width: 10″
Depth: 4.25″
Cutout Height: 20.375″
Cutout Width: 8.875″
Mounting Depth: 4″
Weight: 21 lbs.
Shipping Weight: 23 lbs.


Athanasios

[ecrabb]

Thanks, Athanasios... I'll check them out. They are a little bigger than my current speakers, which is one of the things I want... Bigger. More headroom for less compression at higher SPL's, and a "bigger" sound. My M&Ks are dual 5.25" mid/bass drivers. The Phase-Techs are 6.5"s, so half-again more piston area, and they are more sensitive...

But, from my research, it seems like the really high-performance inwall stuff all has back-boxes... Not just to control resonance and sound leakage into adjoining spaces, but to tightly control dispersion, frequency response, and power-handling. Seems like all the cheaper, non-critical listening stuff has open backs, so not sure what to think.

I was also leaning toward DIY... The Phase-Techs are pretty reasonable, in fact not much more expensive than my M&Ks were. But, they're still pretty pricey compared to DIY. I had great luck with my subs, and from my reading and listening at a couple of meets, you can generally buy 2-3 times the speaker with DIY if you use a tested, proven design, and you're willing to do the work. In other words, with a budget of $1000, I can get sound similar to a $3000 set of mains. It's not like I have loads of spare time, but it's hard to ignore.

I'm going to do some more reading in my "spare" time, but more importantly, I'll check out some stuff at CEDIA. Phase-Tech will be there, so I'll make of point of going to check it out.

Thanks!

SC

[draganm]

go to any high end stereo shop and ask for in-wall speakers that sound as good as a free standing monitor and they'll tell you there is no such thing. Sure they carry them, and they've gone to great lenghts to make them sound as good as possible, but it's still a small box in a wall squawking at you.
With any speaker, placement is critical to preserve proper phasing and dispersion. That's what makes that huge sound stage where the sound seems much bigger than thee room, that's sense of airiness to music and movie soundtracks (to a lesser degree).
This means 2 or 3 feet away from the wall behind the speaker, and 2 to 3 times that much away from the side walls. This not possible for most people, so accoustic panels on those walls will help some but........
Don't take my word for it, take your existing speakers into a room where they can be set-up like described, you'll swear your not listening to the same speakers.

read this , these guys aren't just your typical setreo review bull**** artists, they back up all their reviews with some serious testing in the lab, some of it is pretty basic but skip over thos parts

http://www.stereophile.com/reference/1008speaks/index.html

[nettwerkjohn]

well, the triad inwalls sound amazing

[ecrabb]

[ecrabb]

[Curt Palme]

Just to add my $.02 to whomever might be reading this.. 12 years ago I went to the high end of lo-fi!

I installed 12 pairs of el cheapo no name brand $60 a pair cost 8" 2 way speakers. I also bought 12 8" dual coil voicecoil inwall subs. This was for my own house, powered by a Carver(built by QED) multiroom keypad system that must now be approaching 18 years old. (the first amp died the other day, a main filter cap opened up, but I digress).

As Steve says, placement is the key. I have the standard 8' ceilings, and EVERY speaker went into a wall. I cringe whenever I walk into a room and see ceiling mounted speakers firing into someone's head due to a low ceiling. Zero imaging and stereo effect, and a ridiculous hot spot under the speaker. Wall mounted speakers may not have any WAF, but that's the way to do it.

As for the subs, I sold them all, as my inwalls have more than enough bass.

Now to go pull that defective amp... one year.

[Curt Palme]

Just to add my $.02 to whomever might be reading this.. 12 years ago I went to the high end of lo-fi!

I installed 12 pairs of el cheapo no name brand $60 a pair cost 8" 2 way speakers. I also bought 12 8" dual coil voicecoil inwall subs. This was for my own house, powered by a Carver(built by QED) multiroom keypad system that must now be approaching 18 years old. (the first amp died the other day, a main filter cap opened up, but I digress).

As Steve says, placement is the key. I have the standard 8' ceilings, and EVERY speaker went into a wall. I cringe whenever I walk into a room and see ceiling mounted speakers firing into someone's head due to a low ceiling. Zero imaging and stereo effect, and a ridiculous hot spot under the speaker. Wall mounted speakers may not have any WAF, but that's the way to do it.

As for the subs, I sold them all, as my inwalls have more than enough bass.

Now to go pull that defective amp... one year.

[draganm]