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Lumagen XS+ Laserdisc calibration problems. HELP!!!
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Play them both an hour steve and i definitely will be able to tell, not because of sound quality issues but because of listening fatigue.

And I agree with What Kurt says above.

Nashou

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just emailed Lumagen and got the answer that explains the problem with Radiance and Laserdisc..

Quote Lumagen:

The Radiance does not have a 3D comb filter. So you may see some issues with composite sources like laser discs.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem is solved for now using the DVDO VP50 composite input and 2D comb filter, and outputting 480P via HDMI to my Radiance XS.

Last edited by stridsvognen on Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Just emailed Lumagen and got the answer that explains the problem with Radiance and Laserdisc..

Quote Lumagen:

The Radiance does not have a 3D comb filter. So you may see some issues with composite sources like laser discs.


You Know I knew this but forgot!! Jim told me to use my Lumagen HDQ for Laser disc and for SDI dvd then out that to the Radiance.

Athanasios

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Just emailed Lumagen and got the answer that explains the problem with Radiance and Laserdisc..

Quote Lumagen:

The Radiance does not have a 3D comb filter. So you may see some issues with composite sources like laser discs.


You Know I knew this but forgot!! Jim told me to use my Lumagen HDQ for Laser disc and for SDI dvd then out that to the Radiance.

Athanasios


Now im just curious if the HDQ will do a better job than my VP50.. Dammit.. it will never end lol
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AVphile



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Ottawa, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Just emailed Lumagen and got the answer that explains the problem with Radiance and Laserdisc..

Quote Lumagen:

The Radiance does not have a 3D comb filter. So you may see some issues with composite sources like laser discs.


I'm having trouble believing that answer explains your problem. Just because it doesn't have a 3D comb filter doesn't mean it is a completely useless comb filter. You might see a little more noise on composite signals but the entire picture should not be winking out! Otherwise Lumagen would not provide composite inputs, especially on a reference piece of gear. Secondly the comb filter is not even used for S-video.

Does your manual say anything about S-video settings? I believe there are actually two different types of S-video signal and some processors have an option to cater to this. I am at a loss to explain why composite video would give you problems though, it should be child's play. There might be something wrong with the unit and you should address it before it's too late.

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AVphile wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
Just emailed Lumagen and got the answer that explains the problem with Radiance and Laserdisc..

Quote Lumagen:

The Radiance does not have a 3D comb filter. So you may see some issues with composite sources like laser discs.


I'm having trouble believing that answer explains your problem. Just because it doesn't have a 3D comb filter doesn't mean it is a completely useless comb filter. You might see a little more noise on composite signals but the entire picture should not be winking out! Otherwise Lumagen would not provide composite inputs, especially on a reference piece of gear. Secondly the comb filter is not even used for S-video.

Does your manual say anything about S-video settings? I believe there are actually two different types of S-video signal and some processors have an option to cater to this. I am at a loss to explain why composite video would give you problems though, it should be child's play. There might be something wrong with the unit and you should address it before it's too late.


The Lumagen is fine.. As Jim from Lumagen told me it can be a problem with sources like Laserdisc, and others have the same experience.

I use the S-Video input for PAL LD. From my Pioneer CLD 925. Thats working better than any of the VP comb filters for PAL LD.

Ill not say its completely useless, But its close.. The composite input with any LD player is dim and boring with some combing.

I'm now using the 2D combfilter for NTSC LD in my DVDO VP50 and output 480P via HDMI to my XS+.. And never seen any combing since, and the colors are just amazingly much better.

I hope ill find a Crystalio II to test a real 3D combfilter.

Your welcome to test it yourself, and report your results here.
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AVphile



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Ottawa, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
The Lumagen is fine.. As Jim from Lumagen told me it can be a problem with sources like Laserdisc, and others have the same experience.


That sounds like Jim is making a blanket statement about the legacy video signals, perhaps not appreciating how serious you are about using them. They charge a good $1000 extra (to start) for units with analog inputs, so it should at least provide a stable image.

stridsvognen wrote:
Your welcome to test it yourself, and report your results here.


I wish, but my Radiance Mini doesn't have any analog inputs. My Anthem processor (VXP based) does and I used the S-video input for LD with typical mediocre but stable results. It provides several parameters to tune the Video ADC:

Video Input Gain (default: auto!)
Video Input Offset (default: 50)
Sampling phase adjustment (default: 15)

For S-video inputs two more:

Chroma Transient Improvement Level (default: 0)
Luma Digital Noise Reduction Level (default: 0)

So without knowing your Lumagen and DVDO's implementation of these parameters we cannot say it is fine. From what you describe there may be a problem with the automatic Video Input Gain setting, in which case a fixed value would provide more stable results. Either that or you have exaggerated the description of the problem.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AVphile wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
The Lumagen is fine.. As Jim from Lumagen told me it can be a problem with sources like Laserdisc, and others have the same experience.


That sounds like Jim is making a blanket statement about the legacy video signals, perhaps not appreciating how serious you are about using them. They charge a good $1000 extra (to start) for units with analog inputs, so it should at least provide a stable image.

stridsvognen wrote:
Your welcome to test it yourself, and report your results here.


I wish, but my Radiance Mini doesn't have any analog inputs. My Anthem processor (VXP based) does and I used the S-video input for LD with typical mediocre but stable results. It provides several parameters to tune the Video ADC:

Video Input Gain (default: auto!)
Video Input Offset (default: 50)
Sampling phase adjustment (default: 15)

For S-video inputs two more:

Chroma Transient Improvement Level (default: 0)
Luma Digital Noise Reduction Level (default: 0)

So without knowing your Lumagen and DVDO's implementation of these parameters we cannot say it is fine. From what you describe there may be a problem with the automatic Video Input Gain setting, in which case a fixed value would provide more stable results. Either that or you have exaggerated the description of the problem.


The problem is the Comb filter.. its quite lousy in the Lumagen.. The DVDO VP50 is much better... And 2nd i always preferred the ABT 102 deinterlacing.. Its just sharper and never fails.. I never understood why the lumagen offers comb adjustment.. like they write you can exchange sharpness with combing.. WTF.. I prefer both sharpness and no combing..

The Radiance have far the best scaling, and calibration, but SD deinterlacing and comb filter is not that great. At least not to me.. But you will notice that is you see the difference.

I need the Radiance+ if the single output and the few HDMI input is enough on the mini i think thats the best solution..
And if analog input is needed buy one of the older VP where the focus is on analog inputs.. And the VP50 is perfect for that like the deinterlacing is perfect, and i dont know any VP that can output 480i or 576I

Using the SVHS input you use the comb filter in your player, and if you like that one its great.. I just dont have a LD player with a great comb filter for NTSC

And to make it clear im against all sharpness and noise reduction and stuff, so its always off, My VP50 everything is set to 0 and it just receive composite 480I and output 480P 4:2:2

When i get home ill post a few screen shots of the S&W test image, with different comb filters.

Again your welcome to post your experience with comb filters, also the one in the Radiance, but its hard for me to accept critic from someone with no experience with the products used in my setup..

You can not judge a product on the price label and the specs in the manual.
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AVphile



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Ottawa, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the lesson. It sounds like you've changed your tune a lot from your first post:

stridsvognen wrote:
i'm missing a lot of light on the colors. Best result is around -30-40%
when using the color test from my Video essentials LD its very dark.

the light output suddenly changes in the middle of a scene. I tested and its only happening where the train is passing the bridge.. Look pic. And it happens 2 out of 3 times. Pop and the image is nice and bright, and next scene its back to boring dark.

I cant find any settings that have the same effect, and cant find any settings changing the way the train scene gets brighter.

All ideas are welcome

Looks like some software bug in the Lumagen, but its also possible i'm missing something somewhere.


Trying to stay on topic and keeping in the spirit of your first post, I've given you some information on how another VXP-based product which I have handy implements the video ADC, specifically relating to white level (input gain). Now I have even checked your XS manual and a similar adjustment is on Page 20. Please try it.

If the controls do not work and the picture level still fluctuates then it is a Lumagen problem and they should fix it.
"comb filter is not that great" does not equal fluctuating white level! When I said it "should" work, I did not mean it would work. I only mention price because I believe we should hold the manufacturer to it.

It is entirely possible that the MSB player is outputting a white level that is too high or tripping up the XS for some reason, causing it to drop to the Reduced gain mode, but the VP50 is simply allowing the signal to clip.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AVphile wrote:
Thanks for the lesson. It sounds like you've changed your tune a lot from your first post:

stridsvognen wrote:
i'm missing a lot of light on the colors. Best result is around -30-40%
when using the color test from my Video essentials LD its very dark.

the light output suddenly changes in the middle of a scene. I tested and its only happening where the train is passing the bridge.. Look pic. And it happens 2 out of 3 times. Pop and the image is nice and bright, and next scene its back to boring dark.

I cant find any settings that have the same effect, and cant find any settings changing the way the train scene gets brighter.

All ideas are welcome

Looks like some software bug in the Lumagen, but its also possible i'm missing something somewhere.


Trying to stay on topic and keeping in the spirit of your first post, I've given you some information on how another VXP-based product which I have handy implements the video ADC, specifically relating to white level (input gain). Now I have even checked your XS manual and a similar adjustment is on Page 20. Please try it.

If the controls do not work and the picture level still fluctuates then it is a Lumagen problem and they should fix it.
"comb filter is not that great" does not equal fluctuating white level! When I said it "should" work, I did not mean it would work. I only mention price because I believe we should hold the manufacturer to it.

It is entirely possible that the MSB player is outputting a white level that is too high or tripping up the XS for some reason, causing it to drop to the Reduced gain mode, but the VP50 is simply allowing the signal to clip.


The combing on the XS is bothering me the most.. And its not to be fixed.. And lumagen recommend using a better/ different comb filter.. I did.. Problem solved.. Ill take a look at your suggested adjustments, but its same problem with all LD players i have. MSB. Pioneer CLD 2950/ 925 Denon LA 2300/ 2700.

And like the deinterlacing- comb filter in the Lumagen dont like LD im going to find a real 3D comb filter like Crystalio II 3300/3800, Or the old Lumagen HDQ/ HDP.

The LD picture from clean Radiance processing is better than clean DVDO processing. The DVDO have lots and lots of ringing on the scaling. And the lumagen have combing from time to time, and missing the punch in the colors.. ( Who might be adjusted) But im sure wont fix the combing.

So what i need most is to get help to find the best possible 3D comb filter out there, who dont later mess it up with a not so perfect deinterlacing.. Wink
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just followed your advice and study page 20 in the manual, and i think that might fix the changing light output. But sadly im not home and cant test it.. Remind me next week.. Wink

I wanted to test some different analog inputs on the Lumagen to see how it handels, but i didn't have time and space for it.

What i have tested is the deinterlacing skills on Radiance and DVDO VP50 and VP50Pro.
I used my Realta HQV Denon DVD A1XVA 1080i 4:2:2 HDMI out to VP and the result with VP50 is no less than amassing.. Its hard to tell the difference from a DVD to BD. But i need to add thats with PAL DVD.. Its easy to se the difference with NTSC DVD..

The effect is in some ways the same with both LD and DVD.. the lumagen when deinterlacing makes a quite soft and boring picture.

Ill try get my hands on another Radiance machine and see if its the same result, to be sure its not just my XS.

Ill say the deinterlacing performance of the XS is about the same as on my Denon DVD A1XVA with DVD.
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AVphile



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Ottawa, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also read many times that the HDQ has the best comb filter. This feeding a Radiance would surely be an elegant and not too complex setup. I almost bought one as they appear very cheap now on the used market, but decided to get a Radiance Mini for the Autocal support and just use the S input on my Anthem processor for occasional LD use. I have configured it to send 480i HDMI to the Radiance which upconverts from there and I must say it looks better than I expected, considering my lowly Pioneer CLD59 doesn't have a good comb filter. I just dusted off the Video Essentials laserdisc and the levels look correct including the scene where the train goes by. Wow this brings back memories!

I am not seeing any combing artifacts, only slight shimmering in high detail panning (stadium scene) and rainbows in two squares on the S&W pattern.

By the way if I set the ADC gain on the Anthem too low I get a washed out dim picture with weak color as you describe. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the Lumagen has much control over this, only two settings, so it is a long shot but worth experimenting.

Speaking of deinterlacing, I have a DVD with a difficult scene where a car pulls into an driveway paved with interlocking stone. So far I have tried it on a Pioneer Elite DV-59, Oppo BDP-83 and various Sony BDPs but they all break up the image into a moire. Even the Anthem VXP and the Radiance get tripped up! The only player to handle it perfectly is Toshiba HD-DVD Smile

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whats the title of the DVD, and whats the output to your display.?resolution framerate colorspace ?
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jbmeyer13



Joined: 03 Dec 2010
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Kurt,

What resolution are you running for LD? My Pioneer CLD-99 (best LD comb filter) is connected to my HDQ via S-Video and I tried multiple HDQ resolution outputs (480P, 720P, 1080P) and found 720P to be the best compromise. A custom timing might work better but I can't justify setting up another memory that I'll hardly ever watch.

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AVphile



Joined: 02 Dec 2008
Posts: 316
Location: Ottawa, Ontario


PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would expect 720p60 to be a good compromise too. Not sure there is any point driving the CRTs to 120Hz on this stuff.

I was using 1080i60 for the LD test just because that's what I had handy and the VE demo scenes are a mixture of film and video.

With film I can set the radiance to 48 or 72Hz and it picks up the film cadence, even on LD!
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always output 1080P 60Hz when playing NTSC LD So it will fit for both my JVC X7 and the profile on my Marquee, and for now my 42" SONY LCD.

I never liked the 720P resolution, on the 9500 Marquee..

When i get it up again ill try make a 960P profile.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.avforums.com/forums/video-scalers-video-processing/1437936-best-3d-comb-filter-lumagen-radiance-vision-hdq.html
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Analog Input Level

This command specifies if an analog input has a black pedestal. If you are unsure, it is better to leave this setting
at PC (0 IRE). The component input gain can be reduced if the input levels are over specification, such as some
video games. An incorrect setting can give white crush or a low white level. In this case, set this control to
“Reduced” to correct the white level. The command is:
MENU ® Input ® Analog Setup ® Level ® (Video, PC)

Component Input Gain

The component input gain can be reduced if the input levels are over specification, such as some video games. An
incorrect setting can give white crush or a low white level. In this case, set this control to “Reduced” to correct the
white level. The command is:
MENU ® Input ® Analog Setup ® A2D Gain ® (Normal, Reduced)
Input

I just looked at the radiance and the Analog input gain adjustment, and its not possible on Composite input, only Component.. Ill try see if changing the input level to PC make any changes later.

for sure the S&W test tells that both the DVDO VP50 and the Radiance is far from perfect comb filters.
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update.

Some time have pased, and i have bought other VP, so been playing with both a Lumage HDQ, and Crystalio 2 3800.

I prefer the Crystalio 2, think its the deinterlacing who is better.

So the latest and best calibration so far, im just using the Crystalio as a AD converter and comb filter, and output 480P via HDMI.

I then scale and zoom the signal to fill my 16:9 screen, in the radiance.

When zooming a 4:3 source 30 % in the radiance it crops the input to 358 lines, so i made a 716 x 1440 120 hz output profile in the radiance.

I then use the 21 step gamma, where i lower 5% IRE to 0, that clip out almost all the black noise from the laserdisc, and there is no picture information at that level anyway.

I then ramp up the 10-30% IRE in the radiance with the luma correction in the 21 point gamma correction.

The color balance i do in the Marquee, i have done quite a few calibrations where i correct the grayscale in the Radiance, but it always makes more problems than good. Lots of color banding.

I have a Laserdisc image, where with the best movies, have nice detail level and great colors, and very little noise.

I dont use any noise reduction, unless its a very bad movie. The noise reduction always smoothen out the image, and takes away a lot of details, and there is realy no need for less details in laserdisc movies.

So for the first time in a long time i picked up 2 laserdiscs i dident see before. Tombston, and Speed 2.

Im getting a bit tired of Video Essentials, The Fifth Element, and Event Horizon, they are the discs i use every time i test or do a new calibration.

For laserdisc i keep a gamma around 2.4

Anyone know the ideal gamma for laserdisc ?
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