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Barco Cine9 impressions with internal Moome card
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Francisco



Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 301
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Interesting topic about moome int/vs ext. I'm using a ext moome V2 with Barco 919 aka 909.
Unfortunate for Barco users there is no internal moome card rather then using $$$$ Eisemann internal HDMI solution.
That actually would be a nice comparison to do internal eisemann vs ext moome. ElTopo?

I find it hard to believe that a RGBHV connection analogue from a HTPC or scaler would be better than ext. moome with short RGBHV cable into port 5.

It would make sense if a HDMI input card directly connected to RGB card gives better PQ and sharper image. In near future I will test this (it will not be from greg Wink )

@Case: The distorted lines and waves in your pictures look more of other problems maybe from your cine9 itself. I found out that my tremulous lines where a cause of wrong timmings and pixel clock. First thought it had to do with overheating but found out that my HDMI or Crystalio or Moome card didn't like 165mhz pixel clock on 1080p@60hz now I'm running 1080p@60 159mhz pixel clock and all is fine. I don't see why we all need to use such high pixel clock as around 200mhz?
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Francisco wrote:
Interesting topic about moome int/vs ext. I'm using a ext moome V2 with Barco 919 aka 909.
Unfortunate for Barco users there is no internal moome card rather then using $$$$ Eisemann internal HDMI solution.
That actually would be a nice comparison to do internal eisemann vs ext moome. ElTopo?

I find it hard to believe that a RGBHV connection analogue from a HTPC or scaler would be better than ext. moome with short RGBHV cable into port 5.

It would make sense if a HDMI input card directly connected to RGB card gives better PQ and sharper image. In near future I will test this (it will not be from greg Wink )

@Case: The distorted lines and waves in your pictures look more of other problems maybe from your cine9 itself. I found out that my tremulous lines where a cause of wrong timmings and pixel clock. First thought it had to do with overheating but found out that my HDMI or Crystalio or Moome card didn't like 165mhz pixel clock on 1080p@60hz now I'm running 1080p@60 159mhz pixel clock and all is fine. I don't see why we all need to use such high pixel clock as around 200mhz?


I bet your problem was the Crystalio.. Mine do weird stuff to, sometimes.. depending on timings and stuff.. Its a nice unit, but full of bugs.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the limit for the H-sync on the Barcos? I know with the marquee's if you have lower than a 1us H-sunc timing you wil get the squgglies.

Athanasios

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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No idea Nash, all the timings ive used work fine on the XG though, but its every source doing it too, not just one.

Francisco, im using quadshield RG6 to carry the signal, ive done runs of 50 and 60 meters or more of that and had no serious signal loss noticable on NEC commercial LCD panels.

I will be getting the Eisemann mods soon. There is deffinate issues with my Barco, however minor or serious i dont know, but as stated previously, some zones of focus do absolutely nothing, making it a real juggling act to get even focus.

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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
So the light level of the vertical lines VS the horisontal lines on a Barco have nothing to do with resolving/ bandwidth.?

For me its quite important that the pixel/ dot hits the right color and level, its not enought that its just there.

Try look this pattern on a Digital projector, and you will know why its so important for color reproduction, and ansi contrast in fine details.

What was the pixel clock on the picture below.?

Zoom in and READ. Its clearly written one is 50% brightness and the other is 80%. They are not meant to be the same.

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Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

km987654 wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
The comment about the Ext MOOME being as good as the Internal MOOME is one that is possibly true if you own a low end machine, but you own a 9500LC and although its only a Marquee, its still a bloody good machine, and will easily show you the limitations of having too many stops along the way in your video chain.



Whats your experience with Marquee 9500LC.? And running it via EXT mome, VS int moome.?


I would doubt that the brand of projector would matter at the high end. Case is correct the external moome does not perform to the level you might expect. It is certainly my experience that it produces a softer image that can be achieved other ways. I would hope the internal version is better but I don't have any way of testing that version. Posting images is probably a waste of time as they rarely ever look like the actual image. You should test and satisfy yourself with your own eyes.

Cheers mate yeah, and obviously fully agree Smile

_________________
Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Case I have to interject here on the one on one off patter and what it means to"fully " resolve that pattern.
Just being able to see the individual lines does not necessarily mean that it is fully resolved. For a proper fully resolved 1 on 1 off pattern the vertical and horizontal patterns need to have the same luminance. Or another way of looking at it is the same MTF between the vertical and horizontal patterns. If the MTF or each pattern do not equal the one that has a lower MTF or lower BW will look darker, which usually on a CRT Projector is the Vertical 1 on 1 off lines.

Here is a pic of a special 8500HR TSE set up doing
almost perfect 1 on 1 off


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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Different pattern to mine Nash, mine doesnt have the lines at the same brightness. I see what youre saying and i know that, but no. Not the case here with that pattern. If you can get me a different pattern i can use that, but im away from home at the moment. The chances of my machine resolving it fully when it doesnt work as it should are very very slim.

Also the image seen in the pic is very blury compared to what is seen on screen, and i dont have a tripod or camera to take sharp images.

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Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks darker on those verticals even on both my digital monitors too, its the pattern.
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Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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ElTopo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1510



PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Case: You should get the Cine9 fixed first. Wihout a proper zone focus it's a waste of time.
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah mate i know, i will have it modded when i get to it.

If you look at the NEC test pattern its the same brightness on both H and V, i only posted the H, and its a blury shot at best.

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RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
It looks darker on those verticals even on both my digital monitors too, its the pattern.


What pattern is it..? where from, source.?

It dont need to be perfect on a digital display, the source can also mess it up.

Do you have the HD BASICS on Blu Ray.?
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No i have no test blurays. If youve got a torrent i will get someone to download it for me though.

I downloaded all the test patterns i use from the internet. I wouldnt know where i got what, there was loads ive downloaded.

The source is a very powerful PC, it will not f*** it up.

I dont know what timings i used when i created that output resolution. If someone would like to recomend some timings for me to try it would be great.

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Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

try this pattern


1080-1on1off-HV.gif
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1080-1on1off-HV.gif



_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
No i have no test blurays. If youve got a torrent i will get someone to download it for me though.

I downloaded all the test patterns i use from the internet. I wouldnt know where i got what, there was loads ive downloaded.

The source is a very powerful PC, it will not f*** it up.

I dont know what timings i used when i created that output resolution. If someone would like to recomend some timings for me to try it would be great.


Do you have a file with the pattern you used, you can upload here and share with us, so we all are comparing the same material?

I was playing with different VP the other night, and its not just about the power of the VP, No HDFury i have will resolve 1080P

And same thing with analog outputs on some VP, and it can also be messed up digital before the DA converter.

I realy doubt that anyone made a testpattern with 1:1 pixel pattern, with have different level, i dont understand the purpose of a pattern like that.

The pictures you made are fine, and looks normal, i have never seen any Barco resolve that pattern, actualy they look like yours.
It would be interesting to see how the mods will improve that.

The only reason i can do decent 1:1 72hz on mine is that im using the MP VIM and neck boards.
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mp20748



Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 5359
Location: Maryland

TV/Projector: 9500LC Ultra / Super 02 and 03 VIM


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have that same 6 line group pattern in several different forms. What has been mentioned about it so far is still the basic test to confirm or verify the bandwidth. there are a few other ways to use that pattern to go further into a more accurate bandwidth conformation. But when going further, the pattern has to be displayed at its proper aspect ratio, that is needed to make sure you'll get the proper spacing between both vert/horiz lines on all 6 of the line groups.

And when the bandwidth is displayed more accurately, you would also be able to get the same match of darkness in between both vert/horiz lines as well. So it's not just the lumen comparison, it's also the darkness (in between the lines) that would need to be equal.

And to go further, you would need to have the projector calibrated (gray scale) to both peak white and zero (0) or 7.5 black as to what your source device is putting into your projector. And its this setup that will allow the darker section between the lines to show up at its best at the higher resolutions.

The low end (in between the lines) part of this is important because you can peak out the vertical lines to make things look right, but in order to make sure things are truly right, you would need to make sure your video chain is fast enough to switch on/off (switch between complete black and full white) without distorting (elevated blacks) the lower end.

The right top horiz line group is mostly focus, stig and setup dependent, while the top left vert line group require the same, but its also THE line group to verify the bandwidth. So with the top left line group being the real rule for bandwidth, the top right line group also doubles as the reference to the top left as to what the lines should look like, and it is also the reference to what the dark section in between the lines should look like on the top left line group.

If the setup is good and the video chain is really fast enough, the lines should be very close to matching the dark section in all the four lower line groups. In other words, all of the lines groups in the 6 lines groups should have both equal lumens and equal darkness in between their lines.

When that's done, you are truly 100% resolving the bandwidth..Wink
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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
try this pattern


Nice one.. That pattern just made my 1080P 46" LCD panel look like a joke lol
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
Nashou66 wrote:
try this pattern


Nice one.. That pattern just made my 1080P 46" LCD panel look like a joke lol
\


I use that one on my blend and to adjust the Peaking circuit. I definitely will show you how good your edge focus is, edge astig etc. Also it helps setting up the Zone contrast. But to get both PJ's to match and have the H and V the same is really hard.

I still can't get them the same, I can get each color to get close but when I put all three up you see color shift and
luminance differences. But i also love that pattern for focusing.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

Marquee High Performance Bellows now shipping!!
Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
Marquee C-element and Bellow removal
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CasetheCorvetteman



Joined: 09 Nov 2008
Posts: 6319
Location: Australia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
try this pattern

Cheers mate ill try that when i get home in a few days.

Strids, i have no idea why youre still on the HD Fury not resolving 1080p thing, its been said 80 posts ago that was the case.

_________________
Barco CineMAX, 120" OZ Theatre Majestic 16:9 screen, H/K AVR 7.1...

RUNCO DTV991 LC ( NEC XG 852 LC ) 100" 4:3 screen, H/K AVR 5.1...
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ElTopo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1510



PostLink    Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Port3 card arrived but cable is to short to connect it to the RGB card (card is out of a BG808s).

The connection inside a 808s might be shorter vs. inside a 909.

All Port3 cards from 808 - 909 have the same Rxxxxxxx number.

Maybe i do only a test Moome vs analog as the there is the internal RGB path that counts.



If someone is interested in the Port3 HDMI card you can pm me.



ElTopo

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