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Issue with Radiance 2041 at 1080p@72hz
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Decibel



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 903
Location: Roma - Italia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:20 pm    Post subject: Issue with Radiance 2041 at 1080p@72hz Reply with quote


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I would to try the resolution in subject with my BG1209s

So I set custom timings with my Radiance 2041.

No problem with custom timings 1080p@75hz (input Digital TV receiver at 1080i@50hz).

If set the default Radiance preset at 1080p@72hz, the BG1209s detect the correctly resolution.
But it is unusable because the image isn't to center of the raster and it is cutted at left edge.
No hphase and raster menu resolve this issue.

When I try to set custom timings for 1080p@72hz (inputs HTPC and mediaplayer 1080p@24hz) my BG1209s detect (and work?) with wrong refresh Frequency (H 66hz and V 75,4khz instead 72hz and 82khz ).
I found a possible bug?
Can be a Barco frequency detection error?

Someone that have Radiance 2041 and crt projector 1080p@72hz capable can do a test?

My custom timings (for centering and filling the image in the raster) are ...

V total 1137
V active 1080
V front 10
V sync 15
V rate 71,93

H total 2450
H active 1920
H front 20
H sync 245

clock 200338408 (vtot*Htot*vrate)

Sorry for the language.

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ElTopo



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PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any chance to shift with the Fury or Moome if you have one ?
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Decibel



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 903
Location: Roma - Italia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElTopo wrote:
Any chance to shift with the Fury or Moome if you have one ?

I have Fury 3D but I disabled the shift feature.
I own a very prestigious and expensive videoprocessor that has a specific section for fine correction of the timings.
Why should I use another device?

I have perfectly centered the image in the raster, the unused portion of the raster is very very little.
I think that is the IDEAL condition for any crt.

My question now is: the error comes from the video processor or from the projector?
Rolling Eyes Question

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like your clock is quite high.. is it not possible to lower V Total a bit and H Total maybe 100 Down..?

Dont you get a sharper Picture, and richer colors if you lower you resolution to 960P 72hz, or something like that.?
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ElTopo



Joined: 07 Nov 2006
Posts: 1510



PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leave the VP out of the video chain for the test that would be the easiest way.

Could the HTPC be set to that resolution?

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Decibel



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 903
Location: Roma - Italia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ElTopo wrote:
Leave the VP out of the video chain for the test that would be the easiest way.

Could the HTPC be set to that resolution?


Decibel wrote:
If set the default Radiance preset at 1080p@72hz, the BG1209s detect the correctly resolution.


I think that I'll connect htpc directly, bypass Radiance, the projector will detect correct resolution like default Radiance preset timings at 1080p@72hz.

I have a Radeon HD graphic card, it's incompatible with powerstrip timings correction.
So the video output will have default timings.

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Decibel



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 903
Location: Roma - Italia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stridsvognen wrote:
It seems like your clock is quite high.. is it not possible to lower V Total a bit and H Total maybe 100 Down..?


I found some informations that show that timings parameters must respect this conditions:

V Total= V active + 5%
H Total= H active + 25%

So
V Total= 1080 + 5% = 1137
H Total= 1920 + 25% = 2400

But with 2400 pixel total, the image was too large than raster.
With 2450 is perfect in my equipment.

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PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it dont look better with a lower resolution? Like 720p or 960p? 72hz

I think 200mhz is way to high a pixel clock, for any crt, specialy barco, unless i have misunderstood.
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Issue with Radiance 2041 at 1080p@72hz Reply with quote

Decibel wrote:
I would to try the resolution in subject with my BG1209s

So I set custom timings with my Radiance 2041.

No problem with custom timings 1080p@75hz (input Digital TV receiver at 1080i@50hz).

If set the default Radiance preset at 1080p@72hz, the BG1209s detect the correctly resolution.
But it is unusable because the image isn't to center of the raster and it is cutted at left edge.
No hphase and raster menu resolve this issue.

When I try to set custom timings for 1080p@72hz (inputs HTPC and mediaplayer 1080p@24hz) my BG1209s detect (and work?) with wrong refresh Frequency (H 66hz and V 75,4khz instead 72hz and 82khz ).
I found a possible bug?
Can be a Barco frequency detection error?

Someone that have Radiance 2041 and crt projector 1080p@72hz capable can do a test?

My custom timings (for centering and filling the image in the raster) are ...

V total 1137
V active 1080
V front 10
V sync 15
V rate 71,93

H total 2450
H active 1920
H front 20
H sync 245

clock 200338408 (vtot*Htot*vrate)

Sorry for the language.

Your clock rate is wrong, that's why you are having problems.

The equation you want is:

Vtotal x Htotal x (72/1.001) = Clock

1137 x 2450 x (72/1.001) = 200366434

On the Radiance processor DO NOT ENTER THE Vrate!!!! Only use the clock rate and let the processor calculate the Vrate. If you enter a Vrate the clock will not come out quite correctly.

All that being said, can't you use the Barco to shift the image back to center inside the raster. The Barco I would think would work fine with the stock Lumagen 1080p 72Hz timings without modifications.

Let me know what you see. I can help more.

I have installed several 2041's on G90's already and so far have not had any problems at all.

craigr

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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decibel wrote:
stridsvognen wrote:
It seems like your clock is quite high.. is it not possible to lower V Total a bit and H Total maybe 100 Down..?


I found some informations that show that timings parameters must respect this conditions:

V Total= V active + 5%
H Total= H active + 25%

So
V Total= 1080 + 5% = 1137
H Total= 1920 + 25% = 2400

But with 2400 pixel total, the image was too large than raster.
With 2450 is perfect in my equipment.

I don't think you will need that much extra.

Most likely 2200x1125 will work fine. I would think that 2250x1135 would most likely be more than enough.

Maybe I am wrong though, I am not the Barco expert. I use 2400 width on Marquee sometimes to eliminate raster ringing, but on the G90 I use 2200-2250 width.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also just download my clock calculator here too:

http://www.cir-engineering.com/bin/clock_calc.xls

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Decibel



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 903
Location: Roma - Italia


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Craigr

I tried to reduce H total and V total respectively at 2200 and 1125 as you said.

The clock was reduced because in according to formula ...

Code:
clock= (Vtot*Htot*Vrate)


... but the image is too large than raster Embarassed

Perhaps could be an issue of the mediaplayer video output?

Craigr wrote:
On the Radiance processor DO NOT ENTER THE Vrate!!!! Only use the clock rate and let the processor calculate the Vrate. If you enter a Vrate the clock will not come out quite correctly.


Yes I know
Craigr wrote:
You can also just download my clock calculator here too:


My friend did a Custom Timings Calculator.
I applied some modify specify for Radiance use.

See in attachment



Radiance_CRT_Custom_Timing.xlsx
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  Radiance_CRT_Custom_Timing.xlsx
 Filesize:  35.93 KB
 Downloaded:  316 Time(s)


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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decibel wrote:
Thank you Craigr

I tried to reduce H total and V total respectively at 2200 and 1125 as you said.

The clock was reduced because in according to formula ...

Code:
clock= (Vtot*Htot*Vrate)


... but the image is too large than raster Embarassed

Perhaps could be an issue of the mediaplayer video output?

The issue must be in the projector if extra pixels fix the problem.

Are you sure you have the blanking set all the way open on your Barco? If not, you should open up the blanking and then shift the image towards the bottom right of the raster.

Decibel wrote:
Craigr wrote:
You can also just download my clock calculator here too:


My friend did a Custom Timings Calculator.
I applied some modify specify for Radiance use.

See in attachment

The clock calculator I linked you to is one I made up for Radiance installs. It's simple and will give you the correct clock frequency in Hz to input for a given Htotal and Vtotal at a given refresh rate. It only requires that you use progressive frequencies as interlaced is a slightly different equation.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Decibel



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 903
Location: Roma - Italia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:

Are you sure you have the blanking set all the way open on your Barco?


No
I fully closed the blanking (no blanking covers).

Decibel wrote:

The clock calculator I linked you to is one I made up for Radiance installs. It's simple and will give you the correct clock frequency in Hz to input for a given Htotal and Vtotal at a given refresh rate. It only requires that you use progressive frequencies as interlaced is a slightly different equation.


Ok but my calculator have same results of your Thumbs Up

Craigr

Between Radiance and Projector there is a HD Fury 3D

Perhaps this device alters the parameters of the image and the Radiance can not fix them.

Question Question Question Question

Settings of HDFury 3D

1) ON (RGB Output)
2) ON (Sync passed)
3) OFF (Sync positive OFF)
4) ON (RGB COlor 0-255)
5) OFF (Shift disabled)
6) ON (Power led ON)
7) ON (High Frame Rate)
8) OFF (3D scaling 1080p)
9) OFF (audio info from sink)
0) OFF (Dynamic EDID 3d)


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Last edited by Decibel on Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it could be the HD Fury 3D. I have honestly never worked with it so I can't test here for you.

The Lumagen can fix it as you know by increasing the total pixels. This is less than ideal though because you are sending extra bandwidth that shouldn't be needed.

I might suggest trying Moome's EXTV3 but I had some issues with it early in its development. It may be better now and is probably worth a shot. The trouble I had with it was image shift being enabled with custom scan rates.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just started talking to Moome about a Barco HDMI board. If he made one for the projector it would certainly be the best solution. The Sony and Marquee input cards that Moome makes are by far the best solutions for those projectors. You may want to drop Moome an email and let him know that you are interested.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Decibel wrote:


You should also set you Fury to 16-235 (jumper 4).

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Decibel



Joined: 31 May 2007
Posts: 903
Location: Roma - Italia


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
You may want to drop Moome an email and let him know that you are interested.


Yes I could be interested.

He's a member in this forum?

I see that external Moome's device is not 1080p@72hz capable, right?

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stridsvognen
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like your right.. the EXT only supports up to 1080P 60 Hz.

http://www.moomecard.com/moome/download.

Guess the solution is a Marquee or a Sony Wink
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CIR Engineering



Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 3886
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany

TV/Projector: Sony G90 RadiancePro 4446 - Moome FullHDv2 3D


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Moome EXTv3 does support 1080 72Hz. Moome can veryify, but I have used it at that and much higher resolutions on client machines.

craigr

_________________
JETI Specbos 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Laboratory Grade Colorimeter
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
ChromaPure3 Pro Color Calibration Software
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Audyssey MultEQ Pro Audio Calibration System
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything else Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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