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Panasonic shoots itself in foot over Plasma Black Level

 
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273



PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:06 am    Post subject: Panasonic shoots itself in foot over Plasma Black Level Reply with quote


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In order to achieve the optimal picture performance throughout the life of the set, Panasonic Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an automatic control which adjusts an internal driving voltage at predetermined intervals of operational hours. As a result of this automatic voltage adjustment, background brightness will increase from its initial value ... The newest Viera plasma HDTVs incorporate an improved automatic control which applies the voltage adjustments in smaller increments. This results in a more gradual change in the Black Level over time.


I am not getting that initial portion. How does increasing the drive (precharge) voltage help in anything other than maybe refresh rate, etc.? And advertising a low black level performance as an initial state of affairs and then blind-siding consumers by deliberately making the picture worse seems like they paid-for performance is mugged away by the manufacturer.

Makes me want to return my Panasonic Viera that I bought last December. Whatever happened to allowing the end user determine what adjustments in brightness need to be set to rather than treating all consumers like children and then instituting this kind of forced parenting. I give this Panasonic move Thumbs Down Thumbs Down

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WTS




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Calgary


PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, it would be nice to know at what hr intervals it makes adjustments. So from this can we assume that the panel actually weakens fairly quickly. THey say 100,000 hrs for panel life, so if the first adjustment is at 25,000 hrs then at 50,000, then no big deal. But if it starts making adjustments at 5000hrs, then that could be a problem once it gets to 25,000 hrs. It sounds like a parallel of a crt tv when the tube starts to get weak and it starts to bloom in the high white scenes. Hmmmm, do the Samsungs have this problem too. When it came time to buy a plasma I was going to go with a Pana but now, depending on what the hr interval is, I might have to look at Samsung instead.
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not even sure I'd expect to keep a flat panel for more than 10K hours. But to me it is crazy to set an hour-triggering change. Some have their panels site in the worse way for a really bright image in a room with lots of ambient light while others (like me) set it for pseudo-cinema mode. Obviously the two operating styles will produce different net effects.

Its as if it makes no difference in how I'm using the unit but rather the manufacturer is assuming I am using it in the worse way and doing this as a result.

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WTS




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

10K isn't very much for a TV that's sitting in the living room and on practically everyday. I've had my Sony Trinitron since about 1987 and it still looks great and I'll put money on that it has way more than 10k hrs on it.
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Curt Palme
CRT Tech



Joined: 08 Mar 2006
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Location: Langley, BC

TV/Projector: All of them!


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frankly, this simply sounds like AKB or ABG in Sony's case as used in CRTs. It's probably measuring panel emission/current draw or something similar, and compensating. All high end CRTs have that, at least the Barcos and NECs and Sonys do, not sure about E'home.

I haven't seen any figures, but I'd bet the panel lifespan is very similar between brands.
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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WTS, 10K may not be deemed sufficient for you and some other consumers, but it is for me. These flat panels are in environments that replaced the classic boob-tubes and many hours of TV watching is conducted. If I put 10 hours per day on this kind of product I am not sure I expect to get more than three years out of it.

Sure, if we were talking the first color TV, or the first CRT-based unfolding front-reflective projection TV (pre-rear projection), etc., but I am also not going to treat a $999 50" 1080P plasma as anything much more than a boob-tube of equivalence in today's current marketplace. Now, maybe if I were investing $3-6K on a flat-panel I'd be expecting to have it longer, but we are talking the bottom of the barrel new product offerings.

I just do not like a manufacturer assuming I'm an idiot, need parental controls on the picture's display parameters and then do this based on some arbitrary triggering judgment like a clock hour counter. Curt, isn't AKB et al done manually, or at least not based on clock hour counter??

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donnymac




Joined: 18 Aug 2009
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Location: Belleview, florida


PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 2009 viera line is showing increases at 1000 to 1500 hrs. My 50v10 MLL has tripled from .009ftl to .027ftl in 1800hrs. They are collecting data over at the other forum (not sure if I can say which one). Panasonic says it is not a problem because it is by design.
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

donnymac wrote:
The 2009 viera line is showing increases at 1000 to 1500 hrs. My 50v10 MLL has tripled from .009ftl to .027ftl in 1800hrs. They are collecting data over at the other forum (not sure if I can say which one). Panasonic says it is not a problem because it is by design.


Hey no rule against it here. You're just not allowed to bash other forums.

SO...

Do tell!

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WanMan




Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

donnymac wrote:
The 2009 viera line is showing increases at 1000 to 1500 hrs. My 50v10 MLL has tripled from .009ftl to .027ftl in 1800hrs. They are collecting data over at the other forum (not sure if I can say which one). Panasonic says it is not a problem because it is by design.
Yeah, it is a designed premature obsolescence so to get you to replace it early.

This isn't the technology deteriorating, but the manufacturer deliberates making the PQ of your purchased product worse that is 'by design'. If you are ok with it, that is fine. Imagine your car brakes being deliberately worn excessively not because you drive the gas and brake pedals concurrently, but the manufacturer sets the brakes to always be on.

I do not need Panasonic or any other manufacturer dictating to me when my display's PQ is dropping off. It just means Panasonic is taking something away from my purchase. As a result, no longer will I be buying Panasonic display products.

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slackwarerobert




Joined: 03 Apr 2013
Posts: 30



PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or are they being more devious and want you to buy new boards
from them instead of swapping parts from and old set.
Better to kill the used channels if you want more sales.
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VideoGrabber




Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know for sure if Panasonic has changed their policies on this practice?

I may pick up a plasma panel this summer, and if they haven't, it won't be a Panasonic, regardless of how good their OOTB performance is (generally best-in-class).

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WanMan wrote:
Curt, isn't AKB et al done manually, or at least not based on clock hour counter??

Depending on the set, with the NEC its auto or it does it whenever you press KELVIN, on later sets it does it everytime you go into the brightness menu or KELVIN.
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km987654




Joined: 25 Jul 2007
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Location: Australia

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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who is Kelvin??
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VideoGrabber




Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan


PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

km987654 wrote:
Who is Kelvin??

Lord Kelvin, aka, William Thomson. The reference is in regards to color temps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelvin

Wikipedia is your friend.

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VideoGrabber




Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VideoGrabber wrote:
Does anyone know for sure if Panasonic has changed their policies on this practice?

I may pick up a plasma panel this summer, and if they haven't, it won't be a Panasonic, regardless of how good their OOTB performance is (generally best-in-class).

OK, a bit of searching (with the proper keywords) revealed that this 2009 and 2010 fiasco was corrected in 2011...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20066427-1/panasonic-plasma-black-levels-no-longer-worsen/

which just shows that one screwup can have lingering, long-lasting effects on consumer confidence. Panny never admitted that it was a foolish mistake, but it was.

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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

km987654 wrote:
Who is Kelvin??

Youre kidding me arent ya? Didnt you pay attention in school?

Kelvin starts at actual zero °, there is no minus.

Look here:
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ecrabb
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Joined: 13 Mar 2006
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Location: Utah

TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010


PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CasetheCorvetteman wrote:
km987654 wrote:
Who is Kelvin??

Youre kidding me arent ya? Didnt you pay attention in school?

People don't necessarily have a science background or remember high-school chemistry from two or three decades or more ago. It's further confusing even for a few with only a modest science background that a unit traditionally used to measure thermodynamic temperature would also be used to describe a quality of light.

SC
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CasetheCorvetteman




Joined: 09 Nov 2008
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is Australia Crabb, and it was a joke, which im quite sure as an Australian he will have understood as such. If not, tough luck mate Wink
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