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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: Lumagen XS+ Laserdisc calibration problems. HELP!!! |
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I was trying to calibrate my laserdisc with my new Radiance Xs, and quite fast i notice i'm missing a lot of light on the colors. Best result is around -30-40%
There is no problems when using the internal test patterns in the Lumagen, but when using the color test from my Video essentials LD its very dark.
So i remembered that i have seen some issues playing Video Essentials where the light output suddenly changes in the middle of a scene. I tested and its only happening where the train is passing the bridge.. Look pic. And it happens 2 out of 3 times. Pop and the image is nice and bright, and next scene its back to boring dark.
I tested with my DVDO VP 50 again, never seen that happen with that one, and didn't. And without doing anything special my image is much brighter, with DVDO scaler.
I cant find any settings that have the same effect, and cant find any settings changing the way the train scene gets brighter.
All ideas are welcome, like it looks now i cant calibrate LD to a decent light output on the CIE colors.
Looks like some software bug in the Lumagen, but its also possible i'm missing something somewhere.
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Kal. Ill just wait a few days and see if anyone have experienced the same, and can tell me that its just some setting i did wrong..
Before i start asking Lumagen for support..
Maybe someone know if there is any special effects to the train on the bridge scene that can trigger some problems.
I wonder if it could be some change in deinterlacing mode or whatever.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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Link Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Are you using the LD version of video essentials?
Is it only on LD or on all other sources?
Which output are you using from the LD player?
If S -Video try composite as the luamgen might have a better Comb filter.
Aslo check your color space on the lumagen input for theLD. Never hooked mine up so not even shire if there is one to choose, probably not .
nashou
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Do you have "Genlock" on or off for the LD input? Make sure that is is OFF.
Strange problem.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
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X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
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*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
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kal Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 17860 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-NZ7
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Link Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:05 am Post subject: |
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stridsvognen wrote: | Thanks Kal. Ill just wait a few days and see if anyone have experienced the same, and can tell me that its just some setting i did wrong..
Before i start asking Lumagen for support.. |
Yup. Makes sense. It may take a few extra days too as they dig their LD player out of the archives to test it. (I haven't used one in years!).
Quote: | Maybe someone know if there is any special effects to the train on the bridge scene that can trigger some problems. |
That's a good question. I wouldn't think so, but you never know. I remember there was one video processor about 10-12 years ago that used to have issues with bright flashes. It would knock out the VP for a second or so due to overloading. Very strange/odd problem.
Kal
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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Thanks to all for trying to help.
ill try answer all.
First.
Source MSB Gold Laserdisc player composite out, have tested both composite outputs, and i have my DVDO VP50 setup in parallel to the 2nd input on my Moome card.
Video Essentials on laserdisc NTSC I have not tested with other analog inputs yet, i have Video Essentials NTSC on DVD to, ill try that with composite and component soon.
Color space is set to 422 in and out, and 601 in and out of lumagen.
Genlock is off.
Other thing i forgot to mention, sometimes i need to select the input again on the lumagen after stop start or skip on the laserdisc player. Look like it need to relock to the signal. Sometimes i get a gray screen with snow for around 2-4sec before it lock.
When dropping out its just black screen, and it never happens when playing.
My parallel setup on same player and same moome card do not have any problems at all.
I have the Brightness set to -12 on my lumagen to get the same black level as my DVDO VP50 set to 0.
First thing ill try when i get time is to put a test DVD and see if i get same white level and colors with and without lumagen, when everything set to 0. I have some idea thats not the case.
i'm not sure of anything right now, but ill test and let you all know what i see.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Nashou66 wrote: | Does the lumagen have the latest firmware?
Nashou |
No idea.. its a brand new lumagen.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Check that you have the latest FW.
Assuming you do, than call Lumagen. I think you need to speak with them regarding the LD issue. I know as much about Lumagen as anyone you are going to run into and I think you need to talk to them directly about this one.
All the other things you mentioned are setup issues that you can address by learning, reading, and experimenting.
Kind regards,
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | Check that you have the latest FW.
Assuming you do, than call Lumagen. I think you need to speak with them regarding the LD issue. I know as much about Lumagen as anyone you are going to run into and I think you need to talk to them directly about this one.
All the other things you mentioned are setup issues that you can address by learning, reading, and experimenting.
Kind regards,
craigr |
Thanks.
ill pull out a few more laserdisc players, and see if its the same issue, and test with NTSC material from a DVD player to, so i'm prepared to talk to lumagen.
I think i'm starting to know my way around the lumagen, but will take a little longer before it feels like a nice pair of old shoes..
I like to be well prepared when i ask for support.
Will take a little longer than normal, i just started rebuilding my house.
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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There may be a very simple four digit comand to enter to recalibrate the analog input on the processor while displaying a certain test pattern. I had to recalibrate analong on the Vision line of processors all the time. I am not sure about the Radiance though because 99% of what I do with Radiance processors is HDMI based and the rest is component. I think I have connected two total LD players in all of the Radiance installs I have done combined so... I can't think of any other installs where i used the composite or s-video at all.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | There may be a very simple four digit comand to enter to recalibrate the analog input on the processor while displaying a certain test pattern. I had to recalibrate analong on the Vision line of processors all the time. I am not sure about the Radiance though because 99% of what I do with Radiance processors is HDMI based and the rest is component. I think I have connected two total LD players in all of the Radiance installs I have done combined so... I can't think of any other installs where i used the composite or s-video at all.
craigr |
Interesting.
I can easily understand why no one use laserdisc anymore, but i just cant let go of the sound on laserdisc, it easily beats up any DTS HD or whatever on Blu Ray, and its no matter if its just 2 channel analog, DD or DTS on laserdisc.
And you cant deny that it is a challenge to make laserdisc look ok on a 110" screen. lol Finding the right player and scaler and get it all calibrated so you don't run out of the room as soon as the movie gets started.
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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stridsvognen wrote: | I can easily understand why no one use laserdisc anymore, but i just cant let go of the sound on laserdisc, it easily beats up any DTS HD or whatever on Blu Ray, and its no matter if its just 2 channel analog, DD or DTS on laserdisc. |
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. When it was LD vs. DVD, people had a good point, and there was some truth to at, as the AC-3 tracks had much more bandwidth on LD... But... What you're saying really makes no sense. Are you just really saying you just prefer the sound of older recordings better than the sound of new recordings?
Most Blu-ray audio is truly excellent, and from my experience, at this point, unless there's something wrong with a specific title, BD audio smokes anything on LD. For the first time, we have an audio carrier that's close (or even identical) to the audio used in the mastering process!
Have you compared apples to apples, i.e. A-B'd Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on LD vs. Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on BD?
SC
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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: | stridsvognen wrote: | I can easily understand why no one use laserdisc anymore, but i just cant let go of the sound on laserdisc, it easily beats up any DTS HD or whatever on Blu Ray, and its no matter if its just 2 channel analog, DD or DTS on laserdisc. |
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. When it was LD vs. DVD, people had a good point, and there was some truth to at, as the AC-3 tracks had much more bandwidth on LD... But... What you're saying really makes no sense. Are you just really saying you just prefer the sound of older recordings better than the sound of new recordings?
Most Blu-ray audio is truly excellent, and from my experience, at this point, unless there's something wrong with a specific title, BD audio smokes anything on LD. For the first time, we have an audio carrier that's close (or even identical) to the audio used in the mastering process!
Have you compared apples to apples, i.e. A-B'd Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on LD vs. Raiders of the Lost Ark or Full Metal Jacket or Blade Runner on BD?
SC |
I know that not many agree, but it all depends what you are listening for.
If you like the compression and sensation of hearing every mosquito fart up wind, blu ray is your thing for sound track.
But LD tracks more often give me the sensation of realistic dynamic and that makes the weak levels like the mosquito stay down where it belong.
Blue ray track i hear volume regulated dynamics, like action more output, and so on. On LD sometimes you blow out of your HT, and other times you cant hear whats going on.. thats dynamics, but also in a tone you hear dynamic range.
So when you tell me you prefer Blue ray tracks, i think you also prefer SACD over any real intimate live concert.
I just prefer live music, or vinyl. And i don't mean live music with crappy pro gear big speakers on a stadium.
In picture i like to compare to how real life looks, instead of getting blown away over some over sharp over focused digital image. (Compression)
First try find some surround gear that can reproduce a percussion or any metal instrument with realistic dynamics transient and fading out, and then go find a blu ray disc with no compression.
But for normal surround gear filled up with opamps and SMPS i agree its better to stick with Blu Ray sound
So yes i prefer old recordings thats not messed up like they do today, to fit most peoples wireless surround sound bar under the tv
But if you ever get around your welcome to look in and hear how i get around the sound tracks.
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Nashou66
Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 16171 Location: West Seneca NY
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Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Steve it comes down to Digital vs analog. Some just get listening fatigue with digital. I am one of them. I can listen to hours and hours of analog music or LD, but when i listen to CD's or MPS etc i can only take about an hour and my head and ears hurt. I have no idea why but thats just how it is. I take it Kurt is the same as me.
Athanasios
_________________ Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher
"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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I know what you're saying, Athanasios... And with CD (and especially MP3) vs. vinyl, I think there's a point of discussion. However, again... It isn't that it's "digital" that you don't like. It's how it was recorded, mastered, and played back.
If I used just a decent A/D converter and played your favorite vinyl on your favorite turntable into a PCM file, then burned that file to a CD, then A-B'ed it for you, I'd bet you a thousand bucks (seriously) you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
By the same token, AC-3 or DTS captured from an LD, then put back on a BD would sound EXACTLY the same. If it didn't, then there would be something wrong.
Again, if you want to talk about mastering new versus mastering then (the loudness war), we'll be in full agreement. If not, the whole analog preference thing is a preference for certain inaccuracies (i.e. distortions) in the analog. There's nothing wrong with that, but that doesn't mean there's something wrong with digital.
SC
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
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Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and audio placebo is a very real, well-known effect. There's no reason not to assume it isn't in full force in our preferences for one carrier over another.
SC
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stridsvognen Guest
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Link Posted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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Ohh ill love to do a blind test, Vinyl VS PCM like you mention, i don't even know a dac that can make what my TT setup can.
Another thing is that if possible there is more sh*tty analog gear than digital gear, so its not just go analog and your saved.
and regarding placebo, then i'm not old enough to even know what LD was when it was actual, i collected around 500 movies the last 2 years. 4 years ago i had never played a vinyl record.
So i have had plenty of wake up calls regarding sound. And looking forward it looks sad.. more mastering for laptop speakers and wireless surround sound bars.
We/ i'm a dying race, no one see a marked for it.
I think we are lucky that the trend is bigger tv, so they don't need to compress the image so much to point out the details.
I love the image of many Blu Ray movies, but i could dream about higher framerate than 24hz, and full color resolution.
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