I am consolidating my questions and remarks about my attempts to follow the calibration guide to this single thread. To whoever is moderating (kal?), please delete the other threads I created. If I have any questions, I will ask them in here.
To update, I did manage to access the service menu on my Pioneer 5010fd. I now have access to the RGB gains and cuts.
I have followed the guide exactly up to the point of actually calibrating the grayscale. That is where I am having a little bit of trouble.
I am trying to calibrate the grayscale by adjusting the RGB gains and cuts in the service menu while looking at the 80 IRE and 30 IRE patterns.
Now I run ColorHCFR in continuous read mode and adjust the controls until the three color bars are at 100%. Pretty basic stuff. I am sure most of you here have done this if you have attempted a calibration.
I first started with the 80 IRE pattern and adjusted the RGB High controls. This worked perfectly. I was able to get all the bars to 100% rather easily.
Then I went to the 30 IRE pattern and tried to adjust the RGB Low controls. However, when changing these settings the bars did not change at all. I adjusted the numbers WAY up and WAY down seemingly without any effect on either the sensor readings or on the screen.
Could the RGB Low settings be broken?! When adjusted the RGB High settings, I could clearly see on the image the change in color. Adjusted the Red for example would easily show the pattern getting more or less red with not too much change. Those controls were clearly working.
But the RGB Low controls seem to show no change whatsoever when I adjust them. Is there some quirk or consideration I have to make with the Pioneer Kuro, 8th gen, non-Elite?
Does anyone know why this is happening? One thing I noticed is that once I change the settings and exit out of the service menu by pressing the Home Menu button, the screen changes and the gray box has a slightly different tone. Are some of these settings only taking effect on exiting the service menu rather than updating in real time as I adjust them?
As I said, the RGB High controls update in real time and I can easily adjust them to make the RGB bars equal at 100%. So I wouldn't think that the RGB Low controls only update upon exiting the service menu. Not only that, but when I turn off the tv to re enter the service menu, the tone change goes away, so maybe that is irrelevant to this discussion.
For those that have any experience with the Pioneer Kuros, can you explain what is going on with the RGB controls in the service menu? I am really looking to calibrate the grayscale but that would be impossible if I cannot adjust the RGB Low controls.
Link Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject:
Hello kal (and others),
I have been able to accurately dial in the grayscale on my display. The RGB Low controls work, but not in the manner that you would expect. After much trial and error, I managed to get a grayscale that is pretty flat, with delta E's under 3 from 20 IRE through 90 IRE. Most are under 2 and many under 1.
So I am very happy with that.
Now I am trying to dial in the Color by reading the Primary and Secondary colors using ColorHCFR software. Now, my display doe NOT have a Color Management System. I have to make due with the standard Color and Tint controls.
However, I really want to get color as accurate as possible on my display. I was wondering if kal, or any others, had any more detailed suggestions to getting color right (as close as possible) on a display without a CMS.
I know there is a method (reading Y on 100% IRE, multiplying it by a number, then setting red, etc) that is offered, but I think that in this case other considerations need to be made.
Obviously all the primaries cannot be made accurate. Priorities have to be made. I have heard it suggested that skin tones should be a priority over other considerations. Thus, Red and Yellow should be more accurate vs other colors. Inaccurate skin tones would be far more obvious and distracting than inaccurate blues, for example.
If I get red close to the target, it throws blue off by a lot. And so forth with green and the secondaries as well.
My thinking has been that red should be a priority (skin tones).
I have also been thinking that green should be closer to accurate due to the prevalence of grass and plants and trees in so much footage. Reasonably accurate foliage and plant life would seem to be easily appreciated.
I have figured that blue could be "sacrificed" because inaccurate blue would seem to be the least likely to be obviously noticeable in most footage.
Does it seem like I am on the right track with my thinking?
I would really appreciate some help with getting the color as accurate as possible in a display without a Color Management System.
Are there any tips and tricks to getting the most accurate colors? What priority should I place on the Primaries and Secondaries?
Now, much of the information out there on color decoding and calibration is incredibly complicated. I would prefer if you could give some advice that is geared more towards a relatively simple method that certain calibrators use to calibrate color in displays that lack a CMS.
I know color calibration "builds" on greyscale calibration. To measure the colors I am displaying 100% intensity primary and secondary color patterns.
Are my readings in any way dependent on how accurate the 100% greyscale pattern is? Because exactly at 100% grey (or white), I allowed for a higher delta E than other points. Going off the guide, it was suggested that errors that high are more unlikely to be seen in normal programming than in the middle or the bottom of the greyscale.
Does this affect the accuracy of 100% saturation primary color readings?
I set my Pioneer color temp setting to "low" to do the grayscale calibration. Initially I tried to start with "mid" as the setting, but I found out that I could get a significantly more linear and flat grayscale starting from the "low" setting.
But do you think "mid" would give more accurate Primary and Secondary readings?
Or if I tried a different picture mode? I am already using "movie", which if I understand correctly, should give the most accurate colors already. Is it unlikely that User or another mode would give better colors?
Finally, do adjusting the color and tint controls throw off the greyscale? As I go through adjusting those controls, should I expect to have to go back and "touch up" the greyscale in the service menu?
Thanks so much for all the help. If kal (or anyone else) could respond and offer some suggestions, it would be very appreciated.
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 12404 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
Link Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject:
jrodefeld wrote:
However, I really want to get color as accurate as possible on my display. I was wondering if kal, or any others, had any more detailed suggestions to getting color right (as close as possible) on a display without a CMS.
Nope. If it did it would be in the guide. If you don't have a CMS then there's no way to adjust the primaries. Colour temp settings or the controls you talk about don't affect primaries.
If you have no way to adjust primaries there's nothing you can do as on most TVs controls like colour/tint do nothing when using HDMI or component inputs.
I would suggest doing nothing, or getting an external video processor. Those are the two options. Keep in mind that an external video processor can only "pull in" primaries/secondaries that are oversatured. It can't undersaturation.
Link Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject:
kal wrote:
jrodefeld wrote:
However, I really want to get color as accurate as possible on my display. I was wondering if kal, or any others, had any more detailed suggestions to getting color right (as close as possible) on a display without a CMS.
Nope. If it did it would be in the guide. If you don't have a CMS then there's no way to adjust the primaries. Colour temp settings or the controls you talk about don't affect primaries.
If you have no way to adjust primaries there's nothing you can do as on most TVs controls like colour/tint do nothing when using HDMI or component inputs.
I would suggest doing nothing, or getting an external video processor. Those are the two options. Keep in mind that an external video processor can only "pull in" primaries/secondaries that are oversatured. It can't undersaturation.
Kal
Thanks for replying.
Okay, I understand that I cannot individually set primary colors. But the color, tint, and color temp settings do affect colors "on the whole", right? Maybe I cannot get the primaries accurate, but adjusting these controls surely can get the overall color presentation to be as good as it can?
I mean, if I do adjust the color and tint controls, then take readings of the primaries and secondaries, certain colors become "closer" to accurate. I know I cannot individually adjust primaries, but I can shift the entire color to favor red accuracy for example, at the expense of green or blue.
Isn't this correct? What I was suggesting is that I could adjust the entire color range with the color and tint controls to favor accurate skin tones, for example.
Or am I mistaken on how the color control works? Because I do know that changing the control, then reading primaries in Color HCFR changes the delta E errors for red, green and blue.
I might one day invest in an external video processor. But for now I am stuck with the controls I have. I know from experience that changing the color and tint controls can have a substantial effect on the overall color presentation.
I simply want to adjust them with an eye for accuracy. An arbitrary mathematical formula does not seem quite right.
Forget about primaries for a minute. Are there any other suggestions you could have for getting the overall color to look as good as it can?
I know that professional calibrators work with displays all the time that don't have Color Management Systems. I know they don't simply adjust greyscale and do nothing with color. They do the best they can.
I appreciate your response anyway. Do you have any other ideas or resources about setting color and tint controls as best as I can?
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 12404 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
Link Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject:
jrodefeld wrote:
Okay, I understand that I cannot individually set primary colors. But the color, tint, and color temp settings do affect colors "on the whole", right?
Colour and tint yes, they affect everything. Colour temp no. Or it depends on what the manufacturer means with that control.
In most cases it's not worth mucking with these controls as they affect everything (when they even work). Go ahead and try it. No harm. See what happens.
jrodefeld wrote:
Maybe I cannot get the primaries accurate, but adjusting these controls surely can get the overall color presentation to be as good as it can?
I'm not sure why you'd think that. Most of the time they don't work right. By all means try them. I have no idea what they do on that display.
jrodefeld wrote:
I mean, if I do adjust the color and tint controls, then take readings of the primaries and secondaries, certain colors become "closer" to accurate. I know I cannot individually adjust primaries, but I can shift the entire color to favor red accuracy for example, at the expense of green or blue.
Yes, possibly. Depends on how the manufacturer made the controls work, depends on how far off they are, depends on what you adjust.
Calibration includes trying the various controls to see how they work since often they don't work the way you'd expect. See what happens. Don't like the results? Go back.
You seem to be looking for specific adjustments to do given that you don't have the right controls in the first place. I have no idea what you should do in that case. Most will say don't bother. But if you want to try, go for it.
Quote:
Forget about primaries for a minute. Are there any other suggestions you could have for getting the overall color to look as good as it can?
Again, no. Like I said earlier, if I had suggestions for what could be done when you don't have a CMS, I would have put it in the guide.
Again: You don't have a CMS. You can't adjust primaries. Leave it alone. If you want to adjust, go for it and see what happens.
Quote:
I know that professional calibrators work with displays all the time that don't have Color Management Systems. I know they don't simply adjust greyscale and do nothing with color. They do the best they can.
True. Do the best you can. The pro calibrator uses years of experience to make adjustments and looks at what happens and makes decisions, usually compromises.
Nobody can teach you this experience or tell you what to expect on a forum.
Quote:
I appreciate your response anyway. Do you have any other ideas or resources about setting color and tint controls as best as I can?
To set the saturation and hue controls using your meter select which color you want to use as your base. Cyan or Magenta are typically the most responsive to changes in controls. Before you begin taking measurements, you will need to “calibrate” the dE measure to a white point level if you are using a dE formula which requires one (all but u*v*, which are not recommended). The 1994 dE formula is recommended since it provides color error information for both saturation and hue equivalents.
Display a Magenta pattern using either 75% or 80% signal level, depending upon what your pattern source supports.
Let the initial measurements “settle”.
Identify whether dC* or dH* is largest. If it is dH*, begin by adjusting Hue. Otherwise, adjust saturation.
Paying attention to the dE*, begin slowly adjusting the relevant control in one direction.
The chart will track the location of the secondary relative to the target. Pay close attention to the lowest dE* point reached.
The goal is to minimize dE* by changing the control one way or the other.
If dE* begins to increase, then begin changing the control the other direction until you get to the point where dE* is minimized.
Repeat the above steps for the other control until your color error for magenta is minimized.
Document what your lowest dE value was using a note box or an old fashioned sheet of paper. Also document what the final control values were themselves.
Repeat the above steps using a cyan pattern, being sure to document which control values minimized color error there, as well.
Iterate between cyan and magenta until you balance out the color error for each color, i.e., so that you are no longer robbing accuracy in one color in order to make the other accurate.
Your yellow secondary location ought to be accurate as well, though you should verify this, rather than take it on faith.
What do you think of this approach? Not only that but in the second link I posted, this is said:
Quote:
Creating your own Targets
CalMAN needs three pieces of information for a custom color target: the white point (in xy notation), the coordinates of the primaries (in xyY notation), and an XYZ-to-RGB matrix. Here is how the pieces interact inside the colors.xml file:
White Point – this is the target for grayscale. Since this is white at a 100% signal level, the normalized luminance/illuminance level is always 1.0 (i.e., Yn = 1.0).
Primary Locations – users will generally want to specify the actual measured primaries when creating custom targets. There is only one set of normalized luminance/illuminance values that will properly result in the specified white point when using the given primary locations.
XYZ-to-RGB Matrix - similar to the primary mix, above, the XYZ-to-RGB matrix is the final result of several matrix operations between the white point and the primary locations.
As you might expect given the dependencies between the three elements, above, you should not change one element of the color standard without ensuring that it is logical given the rest of the elements. For example, changing the target white point requires recalculating the color mix for the primaries and the XYZ-to-RGB matrix.
The Secret Decoder Ring
For consumers, the real benefit of specifying custom color targets is to be able to accurately set your display’s color decoder using a meter. By inputting your display’s primary coordinates and the requisite color mix required to achieve your white point, the method for setting the color decoder described in the Extended Help topic on Color Decoders becomes very, very accurate. In fact, it is then the most accurate of the methods available.
From what I understand, instead of relying on ideal HD standards for color to base my readings on, I can set the actual locations of the primary colors. Then I should be able to very accurately set Color and Tint controls.
What do you think of this?
Also, can I set my own targets for primary locations with ColorHCFR? I am not familiar with CalMAN.
I am very interested in hearing your opinion on this method of setting these controls.
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 12404 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
Link Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:17 pm Post subject:
jrodefeld wrote:
I appreciate your response. It has been informative. However, I am still looking for the best way to set my Color and Tint controls as well as I can.
Like I said before, in most cases it's not worth mucking with these controls as they affect everything (when they even work). I would not adjust them. What I suggest doing is what I wrote in my guide. If you want to try something different, like I said, go for it, but you're on your own.
I don't understand why you're asking the same question over and over again hoping for a different response. That doesn't make any sense.
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