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Is the V2 card a visual improvement over V1 for Sony G70?

 
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Chuck Anstey




Joined: 14 Mar 2010
Posts: 10



PostLink    Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:09 pm    Post subject: Is the V2 card a visual improvement over V1 for Sony G70? Reply with quote


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Would a V2 card be a noticeable improvement in resolution over a V1 card? I was under the impression that the bandwidth improvements in V2 were for ranges above the G70's 120MHz so that there really wouldn't be any visual difference between the two cards. I have a Sony FullHD v1 card and at 1920x1080p@48Hz, only the green tube can very slightly resolve every other VLine. At 1920x817p@48Hz, all three tubes can resolve every other VLine but of course not a full black to white transition. I figure that is a G70 bandwidth limit but I would actually be rather happy if it was really a V1 card limit and that V2 would improve the situation.
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cinema mad




Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 219



PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have owned pretty much all of moomes IFB internal cards inc V1.3 with Gamma & latest v2 with MP mods,
The latest IFB-Full HD v2 offers visable improvements over previous generation Moome Cards.

Tube condition, condition of Chassis Circuit boards, Gun assemblys inc Chassis circuit boards optimization calibration,
& setup knowledge, inc screen size will all have an impact regarding final outcome/resolving power..

For example My G70 with low hour tubes fully resolves 1920x817 @48Hz using the SMPTE 1920p rez pattern for verification..
tested with Moome V2, Lumagen Radiance & 92" Studio tek 130 fixed screen..
From my own experience setting up A few G70s the Green tube is the most affected/ struggels the most as rez increases..

1920x818 (2200x850 total) @48Hz with reduced porches for full raster is under 90MHZ from memory
(89 something MHZ according to my Radiance)..
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Began




Joined: 31 Dec 2009
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cinema mad,

I try this resolution but during bright scene it flicker. do you have this problem.

Thanks
Began


cinema mad wrote:
I have owned pretty much all of moomes IFB internal cards inc V1.3 with Gamma & latest v2 with MP mods,
The latest IFB-Full HD v2 offers visable improvements over previous generation Moome Cards.

Tube condition, condition of Chassis Circuit boards, Gun assemblys inc Chassis circuit boards optimization calibration,
& setup knowledge, inc screen size will all have an impact regarding final outcome/resolving power..

For example My G70 with low hour tubes fully resolves 1920x817 @48Hz using the SMPTE 1920p rez pattern for verification..
tested with Moome V2, Lumagen Radiance & 92" Studio tek 130 fixed screen..
From my own experience setting up A few G70s the Green tube is the most affected/ struggels the most as rez increases..

1920x818 (2200x850 total) @48Hz with reduced porches for full raster is under 90MHZ from memory
(89 something MHZ according to my Radiance)..
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The v2 card performs much better in all projectors than the v1.

The difference is that the v1 attenuates the signal on board so that when the signal hits the projector you have already lost about 70% of the resolution (yes I have measured this on my oscope). The v2 card only attenuates the video signal by about 5% as measured on my oscope.

No matter what projector you have, the projector will always attenuate the signal internally. The thing is that the more signal you start with, the more signal you will see on the screen. So say arbitrarily that your G70 attenuates 30% of 1080p. If you attenuate or remove 30% of the original signal, this will be additional attenuation to whatever quality signal is originally put into the projector.

What you would see on screen with a v1 is a 30% signal (70% attenuated by v1) that is then attenuated another 30% by the projector. So you are left with say (this is not the real math, but you get the idea)

Moome v1
100% - 70% = 30% (moome v1)
30% - 9% (30% of 30%) = 21% Of original signal makes it to tubes.

Moome v2
100% - 5% = 95% (moome v2)
95% - 28.5% (30% of 95%) = 66.% Of original signal makes it to tubes.

So whether or not your projector can resolve 1080p is not the point. The point is that you need to get the most resolution to the tubes as possible. With the v1 you are only getting about 21% of the original resolution on screen where the v2 gets you about 66.5% or the original resolution. The 1:1 SMTPE lines will still be grey, but they will be a brighter grey and everything will look much sharper Smile

Depending on where you are located I can actually upgrade your existing v1 to a v2 btw. Send me an email if you want.

craigr

_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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cinema mad




Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 219



PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Began wrote:
Hi Cinema mad,

I try this resolution but during bright scene it flicker. do you have this problem.

Thanks
Began


cinema mad wrote:
I have owned pretty much all of moomes IFB internal cards inc V1.3 with Gamma & latest v2 with MP mods,
The latest IFB-Full HD v2 offers visable improvements over previous generation Moome Cards.

Tube condition, condition of Chassis Circuit boards, Gun assemblys inc Chassis circuit boards optimization calibration,
& setup knowledge, inc screen size will all have an impact regarding final outcome/resolving power..

For example My G70 with low hour tubes fully resolves 1920x817 @48Hz using the SMPTE 1920p rez pattern for verification..
tested with Moome V2, Lumagen Radiance & 92" Studio tek 130 fixed screen..
From my own experience setting up A few G70s the Green tube is the most affected/ struggels the most as rez increases..

1920x818 (2200x850 total) @48Hz with reduced porches for full raster is under 90MHZ from memory
(89 something MHZ according to my Radiance)..

HI Began
Do you run A Radiance ? as Im happy to provide you with my custom timings & Pixel clock Thanks to Craig's (CIR) Spread sheet ..

As your no doubt aware Some people are much more sensitive to Refresh rate than others myself included even coming from A Pal Country.. But with that said by reducing the Porches / Custom Timing for 24p Blu-ray I notice very very little Flicker @ 48Hz as compared with default 1080p24 timings @ 48Hz refresh rate. People that have been in my theatre have never complained of Flicker, not that ive asked Smile ..
One of the top regarded ISF Calibrators in my Country Aaron Rigg (AVICAL) viewed my projector running Blu-rays @ 48Hz(2:2) & commented that he was really suprised of the lack of flicker compared to what he would of expected to see..

Is flicker there in the rare instance, Sure But its so unnoticeable/non distracting that To me the Pluses far outweigh the negative's ..
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Axatax




Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 403


TV/Projector: Sony VPH-G70Q (aka Barco Cine8 Onyx)


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides what has been stated above, this card has a higher tolerance to source switching vs/ the V1.

With the V1, the PJ would frequently loose signal (presumably due to HDMI handshake) while the V2 handles this like a champ. YMMV, IMHO, etc.
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Began




Joined: 31 Dec 2009
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cinema Mad.

I don't have a Radiance. I'm using HTPC and from a PAL country too.


Cheers
Began
cinema mad wrote:
Began wrote:
Hi Cinema mad,

I try this resolution but during bright scene it flicker. do you have this problem.

Thanks
Began


cinema mad wrote:
I have owned pretty much all of moomes IFB internal cards inc V1.3 with Gamma & latest v2 with MP mods,
The latest IFB-Full HD v2 offers visable improvements over previous generation Moome Cards.

Tube condition, condition of Chassis Circuit boards, Gun assemblys inc Chassis circuit boards optimization calibration,
& setup knowledge, inc screen size will all have an impact regarding final outcome/resolving power..

For example My G70 with low hour tubes fully resolves 1920x817 @48Hz using the SMPTE 1920p rez pattern for verification..
tested with Moome V2, Lumagen Radiance & 92" Studio tek 130 fixed screen..
From my own experience setting up A few G70s the Green tube is the most affected/ struggels the most as rez increases..

1920x818 (2200x850 total) @48Hz with reduced porches for full raster is under 90MHZ from memory
(89 something MHZ according to my Radiance)..

HI Began
Do you run A Radiance ? as Im happy to provide you with my custom timings & Pixel clock Thanks to Craig's (CIR) Spread sheet ..

As your no doubt aware Some people are much more sensitive to Refresh rate than others myself included even coming from A Pal Country.. But with that said by reducing the Porches / Custom Timing for 24p Blu-ray I notice very very little Flicker @ 48Hz as compared with default 1080p24 timings @ 48Hz refresh rate. People that have been in my theatre have never complained of Flicker, not that ive asked Smile ..
One of the top regarded ISF Calibrators in my Country Aaron Rigg (AVICAL) viewed my projector running Blu-rays @ 48Hz(2:2) & commented that he was really suprised of the lack of flicker compared to what he would of expected to see..

Is flicker there in the rare instance, Sure But its so unnoticeable/non distracting that To me the Pluses far outweigh the negative's ..
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Began




Joined: 31 Dec 2009
Posts: 32



PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Cinema Mad,

Please give me the timing.

thanks
Began
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cinema mad




Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 219



PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
The v2 card performs much better in all projectors than the v1.

The difference is that the v1 attenuates the signal on board so that when the signal hits the projector you have already lost about 70% of the resolution (yes I have measured this on my oscope). The v2 card only attenuates the video signal by about 5% as measured on my oscope.

No matter what projector you have, the projector will always attenuate the signal internally. The thing is that the more signal you start with, the more signal you will see on the screen. So say arbitrarily that your G70 attenuates 30% of 1080p. If you attenuate or remove 30% of the original signal, this will be additional attenuation to whatever quality signal is originally put into the projector.

What you would see on screen with a v1 is a 30% signal (70% attenuated by v1) that is then attenuated another 30% by the projector. So you are left with say (this is not the real math, but you get the idea)

Moome v1
100% - 70% = 30% (moome v1)
30% - 9% (30% of 30%) = 21% Of original signal makes it to tubes.

Moome v2
100% - 5% = 95% (moome v2)
95% - 28.5% (30% of 95%) = 66.% Of original signal makes it to tubes.

So whether or not your projector can resolve 1080p is not the point. The point is that you need to get the most resolution to the tubes as possible. With the v1 you are only getting about 21% of the original resolution on screen where the v2 gets you about 66.5% or the original resolution. The 1:1 SMTPE lines will still be grey, but they will be a brighter grey and everything will look much sharper Smile

Depending on where you are located I can actually upgrade your existing v1 to a v2 btw. Send me an email if you want.

craigr
Hi Craig,
Just wondering if you could comment/offer any info regarding the new IFB-V3 cards performance & wether there's A further reduction in Attenuation compared to v2's 5%..

Jase..
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cinema mad wrote:
Hi Craig,
Just wondering if you could comment/offer any info regarding the new IFB-V3 cards performance & wether there's A further reduction in Attenuation compared to v2's 5%..

Jase..

I just got a V3 board from Moome yesterday and have not tested it yet. I plan to get to it soon.

However, I will say that it will be nearly impossible to top the V2 board in terms of bandwidth. The V2 attenuates almost nothing which is near the limit of top performance for bandwidth already. The V2 was the first HDMI transcoder that was so good.

I will post more when I have evaluated the V3.

craigr

_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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kabuby77




Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="CIR Engineering".........
Moome v1
100% - 70% = 30% (moome v1)
30% - 9% (30% of 30%) = 21% Of original signal makes it to tubes.

Moome v2
100% - 5% = 95% (moome v2)
95% - 28.5% (30% of 95%) = 66.% Of original signal makes it to tubes.

......[/quote]

Hi, can you explain what kind of measurements you made and with what tools?
I remember some photos from oscilloscope...
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kabuby77 wrote:

Hi, can you explain what kind of measurements you made and with what tools?
I remember some photos from oscilloscope...

I don't know what else to say other than what I already explained?

http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=319248&sid=d623a0979abd2c1b444fc953f4bafd7b#319248

craigr

_________________
*NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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kabuby77




Joined: 28 Mar 2011
Posts: 147
Location: Italy


PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:

I don't know what else to say other than what I already explained?
craigr


What do you mean for image attenuation? Width? BW?
Thanks
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cinema mad




Joined: 25 Nov 2009
Posts: 219



PostLink    Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Craig,
Looking foward to your thoughts & analisis on Moome's V3


I like the sound of the upgraded power supply & Opamps.. hopefully this = better pic quality however slight..
The 3D sync is an added bonus also but second to the above..

Jase..
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