Oh, I didn't know we had a whole thread for this now. Thanks Kal! Anyway, you all know I have an old RS1 now with these nasty primaries and I'm on the hunt for an affordable CMS or processor, whatever.
Like I said before, don't worry too much about the primaries - I doubt you will actually notice it unless someone did a side-by-side before/after comparison for you. That being said, if you want to calibrate the gamut for the sake of accuracy...
dropzone7 wrote:
Would a Lumagen HDQ do the job? I assume the DVI ports can adapt to HDMI?
Yes, a Lumagen HDQ will work, however it is only capable of calibrating the primaries, not the secondaries. The secondaries should fall into place properly once you reign in the primaries, however if there's any weird stuff going on inside the projector the secondaries might not quite end up where they are supposed to. IIRC I had to calibrate my secondaries as well on my RS1 and RS2 when I used my Radiance.
If all you want to do is have a box that can fully calibrate the RS1 (or any other projector), I think a used VideoEQ would be my first choice. After that if you're on a budget, I'd look at a used Lumagen Vision series processor, and finally the Radiance Mini. Don't get me wrong, I think the Mini is an absolutely fantastic piece of equipment, especially at its current sale price, however if you don't need all of the flexibility and processing power, a VideoEQ will be the cheaper option and they're very flexible and powerful in terms of its full suite of calibration controls. It really all depends on what you're looking for in terms of capabilities. _________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1070 Location: Charlotte, NC
Link Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:01 am Post subject:
HogPilot wrote:
dropzone7 wrote:
Oh, I didn't know we had a whole thread for this now. Thanks Kal! Anyway, you all know I have an old RS1 now with these nasty primaries and I'm on the hunt for an affordable CMS or processor, whatever.
Like I said before, don't worry too much about the primaries - I doubt you will actually notice it unless someone did a side-by-side before/after comparison for you. That being said, if you want to calibrate the gamut for the sake of accuracy...
dropzone7 wrote:
Would a Lumagen HDQ do the job? I assume the DVI ports can adapt to HDMI?
Yes, a Lumagen HDQ will work, however it is only capable of calibrating the primaries, not the secondaries. The secondaries should fall into place properly once you reign in the primaries, however if there's any weird stuff going on inside the projector the secondaries might not quite end up where they are supposed to. IIRC I had to calibrate my secondaries as well on my RS1 and RS2 when I used my Radiance.
If all you want to do is have a box that can fully calibrate the RS1 (or any other projector), I think a used VideoEQ would be my first choice. After that if you're on a budget, I'd look at a used Lumagen Vision series processor, and finally the Radiance Mini. Don't get me wrong, I think the Mini is an absolutely fantastic piece of equipment, especially at its current sale price, however if you don't need all of the flexibility and processing power, a VideoEQ will be the cheaper option and they're very flexible and powerful in terms of its full suite of calibration controls. It really all depends on what you're looking for in terms of capabilities.
So if I find one of those VideoEQ boxes used could I still use my VP50Pro for vertical stretch and other things without getting in the way of the VideoEQ?
Oh man, I start Googling the VideoEQ and the first thing I come across is a thread with Gary trying to buy one. Not a good omen.
Link Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject:
dropzone7 wrote:
So if I find one of those VideoEQ boxes used could I still use my VP50Pro for vertical stretch and other things without getting in the way of the VideoEQ?
Absolutely. The VEQ doesn't interfere with any of the scaling or processing functions in any way. However I would suggest that you use the VEQ for all picture adjustments and not use any of the controls on the VP50 (i.e. brightness, contrast, etc).
dropzone7 wrote:
Oh man, I start Googling the VideoEQ and the first thing I come across is a thread with Gary trying to buy one. Not a good omen.
Haha, well as long as he's not involved I'm sure everything will go ok _________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1070 Location: Charlotte, NC
Link Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:56 am Post subject:
HogPilot wrote:
Absolutely. The VEQ doesn't interfere with any of the scaling or processing functions in any way. However I would suggest that you use the VEQ for all picture adjustments and not use any of the controls on the VP50 (i.e. brightness, contrast, etc
Wow, this thing is not cheap! I could just about buy the Radiance Mini for what this VideoEQ sells for new. I know I have seen them for a good bit less than that used which is what I will be looking for.
How does something like the VideoEQ or the Radiance compare to the CMS controls of higher end projectors like the RS20, RS50,60, etc.? I'm just wondering if it's worth paying more for the projector to get those features. I'm thinking perhaps not since projector technology evolves so quickly while you might keep a processor for years. _________________ "Coffee is for Closers."
Link Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:04 pm Post subject:
dropzone7 wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
Absolutely. The VEQ doesn't interfere with any of the scaling or processing functions in any way. However I would suggest that you use the VEQ for all picture adjustments and not use any of the controls on the VP50 (i.e. brightness, contrast, etc
Wow, this thing is not cheap! I could just about buy the Radiance Mini for what this VideoEQ sells for new. I know I have seen them for a good bit less than that used which is what I will be looking for.
Yeah, if you're looking at brand new I'd definitely go with the Radiance Mini. You should be able to grab a VEQ basic (not the Pro) used for $400-$500 used, maybe even less IIRC. If you do go this route, make sure you update the firmware when you get it - the VEQ basic originally didn't have a CMS capability, it was added through a firmware update later on.
dropzone7 wrote:
How does something like the VideoEQ or the Radiance compare to the CMS controls of higher end projectors like the RS20, RS50,60, etc.?
It really depends on the specific projector, and can be hit or miss. The CMS in the RS20, RS25, and RS35 worked pretty well, but the CMS in the RS50 and RS60 isn't as easy because some of the controls interact with other controls more than they should, so it takes more time to dial in a calibration.
dropzone7 wrote:
I'm just wondering if it's worth paying more for the projector to get those features. I'm thinking perhaps not since projector technology evolves so quickly while you might keep a processor for years.
You hit the nail on the head with the underlined part (at least, that's the way I look at it as well). I have a Radiance XE, and no matter what projector I decide to buy in the future, I will always have a very flexible and powerful full CMS that I can use to completely calibrate anything I hook up to it. A lot of people last year who had some sort of external CMS box opted for the JVC RS40 (which doesn't have a full CMS) and saved quite a bit of money while achieving probably 90-95% of the PQ performance of the RS50/60.
I bought my XD back in 2007, later upgraded it to the XE (essentially swapped out the HDMI 1.1 board for a 1.3 board), and I think I've been through 5 projectors since then (7 of you count two I purchased to try out but didn't keep in my theater). Having the XE definitely expands my options without having to worry about whether I can calibrate a given projector. _________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1070 Location: Charlotte, NC
Link Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject:
Thanks for all the info HogPilot. Very informative. What do you think about the RS40 vs. an RS1? Just looking at a dealer demo for what seems like a great price and wondering if the upgrade would be worth it. _________________ "Coffee is for Closers."
Link Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:04 am Post subject:
dropzone7 wrote:
Thanks for all the info HogPilot. Very informative. What do you think about the RS40 vs. an RS1? Just looking at a dealer demo for what seems like a great price and wondering if the upgrade would be worth it.
If you're willing to spend the money on the RS40, I'd go with it over the RS1 hands down. JVC has made many more improvements to their projectors than just contrast ratio that will create an overall better picture. Even going from an RS2 to my RS35, the difference was quite apparent. _________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1070 Location: Charlotte, NC
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 1:47 pm Post subject:
So I found a few Radiance Minis for sale. Am I correct in that this processor will NOT do 72hz from a 24p source? If not then this is something I would lose by going with the Lumagen. My VP50Pro will do 72hz. Also, between the Mini and a VideoEQ, which would be the better choice? I guess the VideoEQ is not a substitute for a scaler/processor however. _________________ "Coffee is for Closers."
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 12341 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:08 pm Post subject:
dropzone7 wrote:
So I found a few Radiance Minis for sale. Am I correct in that this processor will NOT do 72hz from a 24p source?
That is incorrect. The Mini will not do 1080p/72. It maxes out at 1080p/60. It will do 72Hz, just not at 1080p. If you want to do 1080p at 72Hz you need the XS+ or the XE+.
For more info see our Radiance order page here: http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
(Incidentally, we have the RadianceMini on sale for an extra $200 off until Dec 31 ...)
Why do you want to do 72Hz anyway? That's only for CRT based displays.
Is this not for use with the RS1? The RS1 does native 24Hz. Use that. There is zero advantage to doubling or tripling the 25Hz source refresh rate for use with digital displays. You don't need to do that since digital displays don't flicker at low refresh rate. There's no phosphor that decays and needs to be continually refreshed.
Quote:
Also, between the Mini and a VideoEQ, which would be the better choice? I guess the VideoEQ is not a substitute for a scaler/processor however.
Hard to compare the two. The Mini does so much more. I would go with the Mini in a heartbeat.
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1070 Location: Charlotte, NC
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:21 pm Post subject:
WTS wrote:
Are you saying you found a few used minis forsale?
Yeah, same buyer has two for sale on Videogon. Not sure if it's a good price or not. I would prefer to support this site but buying new is rarely in my budget. It's a rare occasion when I get to be the first to crack open a box or enjoy that "new" smell. _________________ "Coffee is for Closers."
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1070 Location: Charlotte, NC
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:25 pm Post subject:
kal wrote:
dropzone7 wrote:
So I found a few Radiance Minis for sale. Am I correct in that this processor will NOT do 72hz from a 24p source?
That is incorrect. The Mini will not do 1080p/72. It maxes out at 1080p/60. It will do 72Hz, just not at 1080p. If you want to do 1080p at 72Hz you need the XS+ or the XE+.
For more info see our Radiance order page here: http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
(Incidentally, we have the RadianceMini on sale for an extra $200 off until Dec 31 ...)
Why do you want to do 72Hz anyway? That's only for CRT based displays.
Is this not for use with the RS1? The RS1 does native 24Hz. Use that. There is zero advantage to doubling or tripling the 25Hz source refresh rate for use with digital displays. You don't need to do that since digital displays don't flicker at low refresh rate. There's no phosphor that decays and needs to be continually refreshed.
Quote:
Also, between the Mini and a VideoEQ, which would be the better choice? I guess the VideoEQ is not a substitute for a scaler/processor however.
Hard to compare the two. The Mini does so much more. I would go with the Mini in a heartbeat.
Kal
Right, I should have clarified 1080p/72hz. I see your point about not needing 72hz but I guess I just assumed it helped with motion and smoothness of the image. I could see an obvious difference with my CRT projector but if it's not needed with digital then I will stop obsessing over it. I guess it comes down to what will work best for correcting color, gamma, etc. on my RS1 or any other JVC I might end up with down the road. I suppose it's either keep my VP50Pro and hold out for a used VideoEQ in the $500-$600 range or drop my VP50Pro and replace with a Radiance Mini that can handle both functions. _________________ "Coffee is for Closers."
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject:
dropzone7 wrote:
kal wrote:
dropzone7 wrote:
So I found a few Radiance Minis for sale. Am I correct in that this processor will NOT do 72hz from a 24p source?
That is incorrect. The Mini will not do 1080p/72. It maxes out at 1080p/60. It will do 72Hz, just not at 1080p. If you want to do 1080p at 72Hz you need the XS+ or the XE+.
For more info see our Radiance order page here: http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
(Incidentally, we have the RadianceMini on sale for an extra $200 off until Dec 31 ...)
Why do you want to do 72Hz anyway? That's only for CRT based displays.
Is this not for use with the RS1? The RS1 does native 24Hz. Use that. There is zero advantage to doubling or tripling the 25Hz source refresh rate for use with digital displays. You don't need to do that since digital displays don't flicker at low refresh rate. There's no phosphor that decays and needs to be continually refreshed.
Quote:
Also, between the Mini and a VideoEQ, which would be the better choice? I guess the VideoEQ is not a substitute for a scaler/processor however.
Hard to compare the two. The Mini does so much more. I would go with the Mini in a heartbeat.
Kal
Right, I should have clarified 1080p/72hz. I see your point about not needing 72hz but I guess I just assumed it helped with motion and smoothness of the image. I could see an obvious difference with my CRT projector but if it's not needed with digital then I will stop obsessing over it. I guess it comes down to what will work best for correcting color, gamma, etc. on my RS1 or any other JVC I might end up with down the road. I suppose it's either keep my VP50Pro and hold out for a used VideoEQ in the $500-$600 range or drop my VP50Pro and replace with a Radiance Mini that can handle both functions.
To piggyback on previous comments, there isn't a single digital that I'm aware of that can accept 72Hz signals, so if you never plan on using your VP with a CRT, you simply won't have a need for that capability.
If I were you I'd sell the VP50 and go with a Radiance Mini, rather than adding on a VideoEQ. The Radiance Mini has quite a bit more functionality than the VP50 - its scaling algorithm doesn't ring like the VP50's, it's HDMI 1.3 so it can pass HD audio codecs, and it's capable of fully processing 3D (if you care about having that capability at any point). Plus you won't need to hook a computer up to control the CMS like you'd have to do with the VideoEQ. The user interface isn't as nice or intuitive as the VP50's, but you seem like a technically inclined person so it really won't be much of a learning curve. _________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 12341 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject:
HogPilot wrote:
The user interface isn't as nice or intuitive as the VP50's, but you seem like a technically inclined person so it really won't be much of a learning curve.
Or you can just use ChromaPure to control it automatically... No understanding needed at all. Check out this demo video.
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject:
kal wrote:
HogPilot wrote:
The user interface isn't as nice or intuitive as the VP50's, but you seem like a technically inclined person so it really won't be much of a learning curve.
Or you can just use ChromaPure to control it automatically... No understanding needed at all. Check out this demo video.
Kal
Yeah, definitely for the CMS portion you could let ChromaPure do all the work, and that would be my #1 option for calibration for sure. As far as non-CMS settings, you still have to navigate the normal Radiance menus with the remote, correct? Or can ChromaPure now completely control all aspects of the Radiance through the RS232 connection? That would be really cool... _________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 12341 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:59 pm Post subject:
HogPilot wrote:
Yeah, definitely for the CMS portion you could let ChromaPure do all the work, and that would be my #1 option for calibration for sure. As far as non-CMS settings, you still have to navigate the normal Radiance menus with the remote, correct? Or can ChromaPure now completely control all aspects of the Radiance through the RS232 connection? That would be really cool...
Yes, it does more than just CMS. It does everything you'd do in the process of a normal manual calibration including greyscale, gamma response, and color gamut (CMS). All completely automated.
So once every 6-12 months when you need to tweak you do this:
1. Take out the tripod and stick on your meter.
2. Plug the meter into your laptop running ChromaPure.
3. Plug the USB/serial cable from the Radiance into your laptop.
4. Run ChromaPure auto-calibrate. Wait 5-10 mins. Unplug everything.
Result is perfectly tweaked calibration.
I think auto-calibration is great for digital projectors with bulbs that tend to drift more often than say CRT projectors and require 'tweaking' every once and a while. In fact, automating it makes it so much less of a hassle.
Joined: 12 Jun 2007 Posts: 1070 Location: Charlotte, NC
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject:
So I'm looking at $700 for a meter and software that will control the CMS functions of a Radiance Mini-3D which is another $1300. Dam guys... _________________ "Coffee is for Closers."
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject:
kal wrote:
Yes, it does more than just CMS. It does everything you'd do in the process of a normal manual calibration including greyscale, gamma response, and color gamut (CMS). All completely automated.
Sorry, I wasn't clear with how I asked that question - I often use the term CMS to refer to all the controls related to greyscale, gamma, and gamut. That usage is probably non-standard, but it's just easier
To clarify my question, can ChromaPure act as an external controller for a Radiance to access non-CMS related features such as controls for scaling or deinterlacing? I wouldn't think it does, but if so that's definitely a big bonus in addition to the already amazing auto-cal feature.
I do have a question about the auto-cal feature on ChromaPure - can I tell it to just do a specific portion of a calibration, i.e. only greyscale and gamma or only gamut? I'm asking because I'd like to use one of the new i1D3's to do the gamma/greyscale, and my i1Pro to do the gamut. Worst case scenario I could run the whole process with the i1D3 and then re-run the gamut manually with the i1Pro, but if I could do this automatically that would be even better! _________________ There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Joined: 06 Mar 2006 Posts: 12341 Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
Link Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:56 pm Post subject:
HogPilot wrote:
To clarify my question, can ChromaPure act as an external controller for a Radiance to access non-CMS related features such as controls for scaling or deinterlacing? I wouldn't think it does, but if so that's definitely a big bonus in addition to the already amazing auto-cal feature.
Scaling and deinterlacing have nothing to do with calibration, so no, ChromaPure doesn't do any of that. That would be like using a blender to turn on your TV.
HogPilot wrote:
I do have a question about the auto-cal feature on ChromaPure - can I tell it to just do a specific portion of a calibration, i.e. only greyscale and gamma or only gamut?
Yup. Watch the auto-calibration video I posted above. It's also on our ChromaPure order page here along with a bunch of other videos: http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure.shtm
You can check off which items you want to calibrate including Gamma, Greyscale, or Color Gamut. You can do 1, 2 or all 3. You can also set the target profile (Rec601 SDTV or Rec709 HDTV).
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