| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
nuttall_chris
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 823
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
 Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:54 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| macgyver655 wrote: | | nuttall_chris wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | HogPilot wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | kal wrote: | The RS1 does not have a full CMS so any adjustments you make would be to controls that affect all colours. The only way to do it right is when an external video processor that adds that capability.
Kal |
It has individual color adjustment in the service menu. |
I owned 2 RS1's and this was extensively discussed as a weak point of the projector - it had very rudimentary greyscale adjustment (essentially a set of RGB sliders that didn't work that well) and no gamut adjustment. Unless the service menu adjustments came out in a later firmware revision, the RS1 had essentially no way of calibrating greyscale, gamut, or gamma without an external box like the Radiance. |
See, your acknowledging there are internal individual color controls. With this type of technology along with most digital projectors you can only change the intensity of a color. The sliders change the intensity of the individual colors.
An external processor can still only change the intensity of the light. Maybe the external processor will have a finer adjustment control to be more precise but you can't change the devices inherent technology.
Even a gamma adjustment would only increase a specific intensity to bring up lower levels or LSB's of a particular color.
Think about the technology for a minute, white light.... prisms......reflective panels........ there is only certain things that are possible to be adjusted. And only the panels can be adjusted.
So if you want to say an external processor will give you a little more intensity control then the internal adjustment of the RS then I would agree. Or the gamma control could bring up lower light(by manipulating specific light intensity). But to turn down over saturated colors could be done with the internal adjustment..
New firmware or not.... the adjustments are there..... |
An external box like the Radiance can't increase the the color gamut but it can remap the x and y values as well as the luminance of each primary and secondary color to bring the values to the proper points on the chart. The controls within the RS1 and RS2 only allow you to adjust the luminance.
I've been using my RS2/Radiance combo for a couple of years and still love it. I see no need to upgrade to a newer projector at this point.
Kal, I hope to get an invite to see your new setup when it is up and running, I'd like to see how a new projector compares.
Chris. |
Ok Chris,
A) what is the definition of luminance?
B) you can't change the primary color as the prism is not adjustable. |
A) Luminance = Y 
B) Agreed you can't change the physical primary colors of the projector but you can through software remap the colors so that when your source calls for "green" of a specific xy value, the Radiance will tell the projector to send a different value, the value being remapped to a different xy value.
Chris.
Last edited by nuttall_chris on Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
nuttall_chris
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 823
Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dropzone7 wrote: | | nuttall_chris wrote: |
I have the Radiance XD.
Chris.
|
Okay, that's what I'm reading about right now. Will it do 72hz? |
Don't know, I only use 24hz and 60hz output. But I don't think it will do 72 hz at 1080p. Maybe at lower resolutions as I think it's a pixel clock limitation.
Chris.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1070
Location: Charlotte, NC
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| nuttall_chris wrote: | | dropzone7 wrote: | | nuttall_chris wrote: |
I have the Radiance XD.
Chris.
|
Okay, that's what I'm reading about right now. Will it do 72hz? |
Don't know, I only use 24hz and 60hz output. But I don't think it will do 72 hz at 1080p. Maybe at lower resolutions as I think it's a pixel clock limitation.
Chris. |
It seems like I read somewhere that the RS1, which is what I have now, changes the 24hz to 48 or 96hz? In that case I guess I should just stick to 1080p/24 out of the scaler. I have a VP50Pro at the moment but looks like I will need a Radiance to help with the color.
_________________
"Coffee is for Closers."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1463
Location: ottawa, canada
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Chris,
you have been using the same projector all this time?? Amazing!! I just don't have that kind of loyalty
luminance should represent the brightness at a certain ire level...it's the mapping of those values that gives you a gamma value.
Magguyver - I think a high end dlp with accurate primaries would yield a more natural looking color and picture. But..only a shootout could really substantiate this.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Luminance is light intensity.
If you guys really want to have a very technical discussion on how these devices work I would be more then happy to. But I'm not sure if this is what Kal is looking for in this thread.
Ben, if it's been shown that a DLP can produce a more accurate green then LCOS then there must be a difference in the prisms. You can't make a green any more green then the prism allows, no matter how much you remap. Same with blue and red. And same for polarizers and color wheels. This is where the primary shade comes from.
And remapping the signal is a loose phrase since all of the original signal is remapped. White balance and gamma is altered by group pixel changes, not individual pixels.
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| benareeno wrote: |
Magguyver - I think a high end dlp with accurate primaries would yield a more natural looking color and picture. But..only a shootout could really substantiate this. |
Oh, and Ben, I'm not saying I disagree with you on this. You may be correct. They may use different prisms on a 3 chip DLP.
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1463
Location: ottawa, canada
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
macguyver...you have a lot to say and yet haven't really added anything to the discussion. You clearly didn't understand that primary colors can't be adjusted on the JVC...even in the service menu which you noted to us more than once. In which again...you were wrong. NOw you're trying to cover your ass and make it seem like you did understand this. I really don't have time for people like this...you make threads longer and less informative.
If you can't add something to the discussiont then don't bother...leave your post count as is.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| benareeno wrote: | macguyver...you have a lot to say and yet haven't really added anything to the discussion. You clearly didn't understand that primary colors can't be adjusted on the JVC...even in the service menu which you noted to us more than once. In which again...you were wrong. NOw you're trying to cover your ass and make it seem like you did understand this. I really don't have time for people like this...you make threads longer and less informative.
If you can't add something to the discussiont then don't bother...leave your post count as is. |
Hey *******...I've been saying all along you can't adjust the primary color. I'm saying you can adjust the light intensity of individual colors.
I'm not trying to cover my ass at all. I know how digital function. Clearly you do not.......
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1463
Location: ottawa, canada
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
so that's why when Kal mentioned that they can't be adjusted that you noted that they can be adjusted in the service menu...and then noted it again a few posts later. Look...I don't know about prisms and wavelenghts, and I don't care to. I do know that unless there is a cms, primaries will stay as is.
We've already wasted enough posts in this previously useful thread...so stick to the crt where you are an expert. You are no expert in general knowledge of color and projectors.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| benareeno wrote: | so that's why when Kal mentioned that they can't be adjusted that you noted that they can be adjusted in the service menu...and then noted it again a few posts later. Look...I don't know about prisms and wavelenghts, and I don't care to. I do know that unless there is a cms, primaries will stay as is.
We've already wasted enough posts in this previously useful thread...so stick to the crt where you are an expert. You are no expert in general knowledge of color and projectors. |
Well let me clarify something for you. My post on the internal adjustment of the RS was to point out that to much of a particular color in the projected image can be brought down with the internal adjustment in the projector itself.
Then my further posts were to clarify that an external processor can be used for more finer adjustments and to adjust gamma, which by the way is also a matter of adjusting lower light pixel intensity.
Now, by your own admission in this quote you know nothing about this technology so maybe your comments on this particular subject should end.
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh, and by the way, I know Kals OP was about CIH but subsequent posts seemed to indicate he wasn't sure of just what type of projector technology he was going to use so discussions on the differences between them seemed justifiable. And I think it was you that brought up the 3 chip vs JCV discussion.
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1463
Location: ottawa, canada
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I know and understand that in many projectors, the primaries are primaries and cannot be adjusted...something you clearly didn't know.
Everyone knows that color balance can be adjusted on virtuallty every projector ever made...so, thanks tips...very informative. Wow...if you weren't here to note that....well, we would still have a good thread going.
Now, if you want to pontificate on prisms...and wavelengths...go ahead, nobody is interested. 5000 posts and probably 4000 of them are arguements with people who actually know what they're talking about.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| benareeno wrote: | I know and understand that in many projectors, the primaries are primaries and cannot be adjusted...something you clearly didn't know.
Everyone knows that color balance can be adjusted on virtuallty every projector ever made...so, thanks tips...very informative. Wow...if you weren't here to note that....well, we would still have a good thread going.
Now, if you want to pontificate on prisms...and wavelengths...go ahead, nobody is interested. 5000 posts and probably 4000 of them are arguements with people who actually know what they're talking about. |
Funny how almost every thread you post in you end up arguing with them about something. Your already known for this.... doesn't surprise me at all. 
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1070
Location: Charlotte, NC
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, I see things have gone down hill since I was at lunch...
_________________
"Coffee is for Closers."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dropzone7 wrote: | | Wow, I see things have gone down hill since I was at lunch... |
Yeah....sorry.... 
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
benareeno
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 1463
Location: ottawa, canada
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
I don't like people adding in their useless and incorrect knowledge...sorry. I guess I'm a stickler.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dropzone7
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 1070
Location: Charlotte, NC
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| benareeno wrote: | | I don't like people adding in their useless and incorrect knowledge...sorry. I guess I'm a stickler. |
Instigator or agitator seems more like it.
_________________
"Coffee is for Closers."
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kal
Forum Administrator
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 12341
Location: Ottawa, Canada
TV/Projector: JVC DLA-RS56
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
C'mon guys, group hug.
I know what we need to make everyone feel better! How about a nice Lumagen RadianceMini SALE? I've just dropped the price by another $200, bringing it down to $1395.
See: http://www.curtpalme.com/Radiance.shtm
Free US/Canada shipping too and equivalently discounted international shipping. Let's say the sale ends Dec 31, 2011.
No excuses now for poor primaries! 
Kal
_________________
My basement/HT/bar/brewery build 2.0
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
macgyver655
Joined: 22 Aug 2007
Posts: 6966
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RVonse wrote: | | macgyver655 wrote: | | And I think it was you that brought up the 3 chip vs JCV discussion. |
No it was me.
Oops my bad I did not mean to start a cat fight. Just wanting to learn more about this because I know I am ignorant especially with the digitals that I used to pretty much shun.
But I will shut up now. |
Oh no, dont feel bad. By all means it would be an important discussion. It's somewhat of what I was trying to comment about. I was merely stating that the subject was brought up and couldn't figured out what he was complaining about.
My point was that both the 3 chip DLP and the JVC LCOS use prisms to produce the primary colors. And depending on the material of the prism and the way that it is cut could alter the shade of the RGB coming from them. And a comparison between them could yield different results.
_________________
macgyver566@gmail.com
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
HogPilot
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 1478
TV/Projector: JVC RS55, Pioneer Elite Pro-151FD & 111FD
|
| Link Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kal wrote: | How do (or did) you find your current RS50 when compared to the RS1? Just curious.
Kal |
Truth be told, I had 2 RS1s, followed by a Pioneer FPJ1 (RS2 clone), then an RS35, and now my RS50. The most notable improvements as JVC has evolved their LCoS tech have been an increase in perceived sharpness (due to better optics, better convergence, and improvements in the wire grid polarizers), lower black floor, and also the introduction of a full CMS. The RS40/50/60 bulb issue (premature dimming/bulb failure) was a bummer until JVC re-sourced their bulbs and made some improvements, so that should be a non-issue now. The differences between the RS1 and RS50 would be noticable to a videophile type without a direct comparison, and most likely to a non-videophile in a side-by-side look, but as with everything else in this hobby it comes down to money. If you're willing to spend $4.5K (used) for an RS50, there are certainly improvements to be had and noticed; for just north of $1K, an RS1 is certainly a great value and will impress anyone on a tighter budget.
| dropzone7 wrote: | | I believe he is selling his RS50 so I would be interested to hear what he is going after next. Maybe the RS45 or RS55? |
Yes, I am - I actually put it up for sale back in July because I was moving to Washington DC and I had no idea whether or not I would have space for a theater in my new place. Plus I wanted to beat the rush on the new JVC models. I think scares of the old bulb dimming problem have significantly suppressed the market for this generation of JVCs, which have been very slow to sell used. Hence, it's still up for sale, although my new house has a finished basement with plenty of space for my theater. I am considering picking up a used Sim2 HT3000E, which has advantages over my RS50 and some drawbacks. Last time I compared my RS35 to an HT3000E (high-end 1-chip DLP), there were a lot of things that were superior about the picture as compared to the RS35, but it couldn't touch the black levels and put out way too much light for my 84" wide screen. Now that I will have a much larger screen, the black levels on the Sim2 might not bother me as much. So that's my verbose way of saying "I'm not sure what I'll go to next."
| macgyver655 wrote: | | See, your acknowledging there are internal individual color controls. With this type of technology along with most digital projectors you can only change the intensity of a color. The sliders change the intensity of the individual colors. |
The term "color controls" isn't specific enough for me to know what you're talking about. The RS1 has a single set of RGB sliders, which allow you to make very rudimentary adjustments to greyscale only; however because they work across the entire IRE range, they're essentially useless for anything more than very rough adjustments. These controls have zero effect on the gamut of the projector, which, again is significantly oversaturated. Your comments thus far have led me to believe that you think that the RGB controls can be used to correct the gamut issue, which they cannot - if I'm misunderstanding you I apologize.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | An external processor can still only change the intensity of the light. Maybe the external processor will have a finer adjustment control to be more precise but you can't change the devices inherent technology. |
Partially true. WRT gamut, it can also mix the primaries differently so as to re-map them to standard primaries (REC709 for HD material). For example, when desaturating green digitally with a Radiance, what you're really doing is adding red and/or blue to bring green in towards the white point - on a physical level you're actually telling the red and blue panels to emit some light which mixes with the light from the green panel to create what we perceive as a less saturated green. This why it's important to check Y for a color once you desaturate it using a video processor, because adding bits of red and blue to green actually increases Y for green, so you also need to decrease Y so that it is correct relative to Y for 100% white. It's an iterative process, as a change to say red will affect green since there is some red mixed in with green.
| macgyver655 wrote: | | My post on the internal adjustment of the RS was to point out that to much of a particular color in the projected image can be brought down with the internal adjustment in the projector itself. |
Are you saying that the RGB controls in the RS1 can be used to adjust Y for a primary? If so, this is not what those controls do - they only coarsely control RGB as they pertain to mixing to create grey/white. Y for the primaries remains unaffected by these controls.
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Last edited by HogPilot on Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
Forum FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Photo Albums
Register
Profile
Private Messages
Log in
