CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

[biggrigg]

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Hello everybody, I posted [Is CRT the problem with my Toshiba?] on the AVS forum, hoping to figure out whether or not to just fix this one or buy a new tv. We have pretty much decided to buy a new one, but would still like to find out what it would take to fix this one. If it could be done for 3-$400, I might just keep it.

In post from Curt Palme and draganm, it could be the CRT, video neck board, video amp/CRT socket and possibly the convergence chips? Is there anything else I haven't listed that it might be? I know from a few emails with Gina at VDC that I need to get the numbers off of the tubes inside the set and probably the other parts as well (unless somebody has part numbers already). Once I get those, then I can price them out to determine whether or not to fix or scrap it. Any help locating these parts, inside the tv and new replacement parts, would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again,

Mike

[Curt Palme]

Nope, we pretty much covered it on the AVS thread..

[Curt Palme]

Nope, we pretty much covered it on the AVS thread..

[macgyver655]

I told Mike to post over here cause I dont care to post much over at AVS.

You need to pull the lenses first and check for phosphor damage. Let me also check some stuff in the manual.

[biggrigg]

Thanks for the reply macgyver, you mention checking lenses for phosphor damage, I have a permanent yellow spot in the center of my screen. Is that phosphor damage? If its not, then it looks like I need to figure out how to get inside this thing. I'll probably do that this Sunday, but in the meantime, does anybody have suppliers/websites for good quality video neck boards, video amp/CRT sockets and convergence chips? I think I have the CRT's covered (Gina at VDC). That way, I can get prices on the parts, check out techs in my area and determine if/how I will proceed with this. I appreciate any help and info this site and the members on it can offer me.

Mike

[Curt Palme]

THe only word of caution that I'll throw out there is that TV techs aren't making a lot of money out there at this point. If you called me up (if I was doing consumer sets), and said that you had the tube, and all you wanted to pay me for was labor to install and align the tube, I'd turn you down.

By buying your own parts and then wanting someone knowledgeable to do the actual work, you're taking the profit of the tube and other parts out of the tech's pocket, and what happens if the tube fails under warranty? The tech isn't going to come back for free to re and re the tube.

This pretty much is going to be a case of you paying a shop to do all of the work, or you do it all yourself.

By the sounds of it, you're into TV repair for the first time, and you're trying to cut corners or costs. Not recommended. There's no reason not to do the research, no question that there are TV tech scam artists out there, but in this case, I'd let a TV tech advise you that can actually look at the set and give you an estimate.

BTW, I also told you NOT to call Gina without getting the number off the side of the tube. By your above post, you ignored my advice, never opened the set up, called Gina anyways, and wasted her time as well.

I've got no problem with newbies coming here to ask questions, but if you're going to ignore the advice of the guys that do know what they are doing, then what's the point of giving advice?

[Curt Palme]

THe only word of caution that I'll throw out there is that TV techs aren't making a lot of money out there at this point. If you called me up (if I was doing consumer sets), and said that you had the tube, and all you wanted to pay me for was labor to install and align the tube, I'd turn you down.

By buying your own parts and then wanting someone knowledgeable to do the actual work, you're taking the profit of the tube and other parts out of the tech's pocket, and what happens if the tube fails under warranty? The tech isn't going to come back for free to re and re the tube.

This pretty much is going to be a case of you paying a shop to do all of the work, or you do it all yourself.

By the sounds of it, you're into TV repair for the first time, and you're trying to cut corners or costs. Not recommended. There's no reason not to do the research, no question that there are TV tech scam artists out there, but in this case, I'd let a TV tech advise you that can actually look at the set and give you an estimate.

BTW, I also told you NOT to call Gina without getting the number off the side of the tube. By your above post, you ignored my advice, never opened the set up, called Gina anyways, and wasted her time as well.

I've got no problem with newbies coming here to ask questions, but if you're going to ignore the advice of the guys that do know what they are doing, then what's the point of giving advice?

[biggrigg]

Curt,

After reading your last post, I feel like I've ruffled your feathers and that was not my intentions. If I did, I apologize. I value the experience and opinions expressed in these forums. That's why I'm here. I guess I should have explained myself a little clearer than I did and if you bear with me, I'll try again.

This tv set is dying and I have three choices as to what to do with it:

1. Keep it as my main tv and deal with unplugging/plugging it back in until I either throw parts at it myself or have a tech come in and fix it.

2. Buy a new set and throw this one in the trash.

3. Buy a new set, keep this one and fix it up for the rec/workout room.

Myself, I would rather go with #1 and save some cash. But I'm beyond that now and trying to decide if its #2 or #3. You are absolutely right about cutting cost, but not cutting corners. Money is tight right now, being that I've only been at my new job for less that a year and laid off for a year before that. Trying to playing catch up with bills and then with electronics and appliances dying on me, I need to make every penny count.

But that's not the only reason, I am a hands on kind of guy and if the fix for this tv is as simple as unplugging an old tube and popping a new one in, I can handle it. Having a tech come in to do that for me would be like having an electrician come to my home and change a light bulb, just ain't gonna happen. Now if its more involved than that, I would definitely call in the pros. And if I do call a tech, I would expect him to use his own parts (as long as they're quality parts, another reason to investigate) just so I would have the benefit of a full warranty.

As for calling Gina, I'm not sure where in my post above (or at AVS for that matter), you got the idea that I "called" Gina, I did contact her via email on April 6 @ 6:20PM, only after downloading a service manual for my tv that I thought had the correct numbers for the tubes. The numbers I supplied Gina, didn't match to anything they had so I still need to get the numbers off of the tubes. I did this long before your advising me not to and if you like, I can cut and paste the email I sent along with the one Gina sent back, to prove I'm no B/Ser.

So, to sum it up, I guess what I need to know is:

Am I getting in over my head doing this myself?
Will it be too costly to have a tech fix it?
Will it be too costly to have a tech assess it and I pay for and replace parts?
Should I just add this to the list of electronics I need to dispose of?

Thanks,

Mike

[Curt Palme]

OK, sorry my bad, I ASSUMED, and we all know what that does.

I assumed you called Gina after I said to get the number off the side of the tube. So my apologies.

Here's the thing: It sounds like you're hands on, but haven't worked on TVs a lot. There's WAY more to 'just changing a tube'. The tube you get from VDC will be the raw glass and HV lead only, you'll need to mount it into the LC chamber that is in the set, you need to transfer the magnetics over from the old tube, etc.

Something like this:

http://www.curtpalme.com/Sony_G70_Tube_Swap1.shtm

Now, the above link is for a front projector, but the basics are the same for your set. You'll most likely need some glycol and some knowhow to align the magnetics, as some of it has to be done with the set on, and you'll be close to 25,000 volts, never mind the 200 and 600 volts on the neck board.

the problem is, we can't narrow down where the problem is without a scope, to scope the video waveform off the neck board. It could be the tube shorting out intermittently, but it could also be the neck card/CRT socket. I don't think you'll find a whole neck card for sale, that's where the troubleshooting comes in, to see whether it's the video amp or related parts, or whether it's the tube. No sense in spending $150-200 on a tube if you don't need it.

An honest tech SHOULD (and I'm guessing here) be able to pinpoint the issue within 1/2 hour. As I said above though, there's not many techs that will be willing for you to pay them for 1/2 hour of work, then you take the set away to repair yourself. As the old saying goes.. 'yes, I charged you $50 to adjust the knobs inside the TV for 20 minutes worth of work. That's because I know which knobs to adjust, and how to adjust them"

Also, a lot of techs are out of CRT RP set repairs now and are concentrating on flat screens, so you'd need to call around to see who will look at it and at what price. I know when I worked at a TV store and when I had my own repair shop, a lot of people would call around to get the best price. My shop was always a bit more expensive than the mom and pop TV repair stores, but we had test equipment to repair pro audio gear along with 11 file cabinets full of schematics that others didn't.

So it's really your call. Probably the cheapest/best person to look at this would be a semi retired CRT TV guy, but if you don't know one of those, then you'll have to try the local repair shops to see who will assist. If the tube is bad, and you get a shop to do it, I'd guesstimate $400 plus the pickup charge. You could always pull the guts of the set out and take it to the repair shop, most of those chassis are designed to come out without needing to take the whole set to the shop, but then you'd need to know the convergence/service password to tweak the alignment of the set when it came back. Again, that takes knowhow and experience to do right. The service manual may not give you the service password.

Hope that was more helpful than my somewhat snarky post above:)

[Curt Palme]

OK, sorry my bad, I ASSUMED, and we all know what that does.

I assumed you called Gina after I said to get the number off the side of the tube. So my apologies.

Here's the thing: It sounds like you're hands on, but haven't worked on TVs a lot. There's WAY more to 'just changing a tube'. The tube you get from VDC will be the raw glass and HV lead only, you'll need to mount it into the LC chamber that is in the set, you need to transfer the magnetics over from the old tube, etc.

Something like this:

http://www.curtpalme.com/Sony_G70_Tube_Swap1.shtm

Now, the above link is for a front projector, but the basics are the same for your set. You'll most likely need some glycol and some knowhow to align the magnetics, as some of it has to be done with the set on, and you'll be close to 25,000 volts, never mind the 200 and 600 volts on the neck board.

the problem is, we can't narrow down where the problem is without a scope, to scope the video waveform off the neck board. It could be the tube shorting out intermittently, but it could also be the neck card/CRT socket. I don't think you'll find a whole neck card for sale, that's where the troubleshooting comes in, to see whether it's the video amp or related parts, or whether it's the tube. No sense in spending $150-200 on a tube if you don't need it.

An honest tech SHOULD (and I'm guessing here) be able to pinpoint the issue within 1/2 hour. As I said above though, there's not many techs that will be willing for you to pay them for 1/2 hour of work, then you take the set away to repair yourself. As the old saying goes.. 'yes, I charged you $50 to adjust the knobs inside the TV for 20 minutes worth of work. That's because I know which knobs to adjust, and how to adjust them"

Also, a lot of techs are out of CRT RP set repairs now and are concentrating on flat screens, so you'd need to call around to see who will look at it and at what price. I know when I worked at a TV store and when I had my own repair shop, a lot of people would call around to get the best price. My shop was always a bit more expensive than the mom and pop TV repair stores, but we had test equipment to repair pro audio gear along with 11 file cabinets full of schematics that others didn't.

So it's really your call. Probably the cheapest/best person to look at this would be a semi retired CRT TV guy, but if you don't know one of those, then you'll have to try the local repair shops to see who will assist. If the tube is bad, and you get a shop to do it, I'd guesstimate $400 plus the pickup charge. You could always pull the guts of the set out and take it to the repair shop, most of those chassis are designed to come out without needing to take the whole set to the shop, but then you'd need to know the convergence/service password to tweak the alignment of the set when it came back. Again, that takes knowhow and experience to do right. The service manual may not give you the service password.

Hope that was more helpful than my somewhat snarky post above:)

[biggrigg]

Curt

Apology accepted, and I know what you mean about ASSuming (I've been a big one myself a time or two).

I think (no, I know) you've convinced me to let a pro assess AND repair this set if I go that far with it after reading your post and checking out the link you provided.

I like to work on things around the house, to save a buck or two, but not just for that reason. I like to learn new things, but in cases like this, it makes me appreciate people like you and the knowledge and skill it takes to work on things that are beyond my capabilities.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain my situation to me.

Mike

[Curt Palme]

BTW, I forgot one important step that might help you make a decision before spending money:

Open the set up (usually from the front), and look into the blue lens at the tube face with a flashlight (power off).


What you should see is something like this:

http://www.curtpalme.com/TubeCondition.shtm

that's the tube face, and the white part is the phosphor. You say you have a yellow spot on the set, which probably means the blue tube has a spot burn on it, which will show as a black dot or circle on the tube face. If so, the blue tube needs changing regardless, as that phosphor burn can't be repaired.

Also, is the set HD capable? If not, then I wouldn't spend the $$ on it. If it is a CRT HD capable set, then it might just be worth it.

Cheers!

[Curt Palme]

BTW, I forgot one important step that might help you make a decision before spending money:

Open the set up (usually from the front), and look into the blue lens at the tube face with a flashlight (power off).


What you should see is something like this:

http://www.curtpalme.com/TubeCondition.shtm

that's the tube face, and the white part is the phosphor. You say you have a yellow spot on the set, which probably means the blue tube has a spot burn on it, which will show as a black dot or circle on the tube face. If so, the blue tube needs changing regardless, as that phosphor burn can't be repaired.

Also, is the set HD capable? If not, then I wouldn't spend the $$ on it. If it is a CRT HD capable set, then it might just be worth it.

Cheers!

[macgyver655]

Ahh, I see Curts been helping you out while I was sick. The reason I said to check for phosphor damage first is because there may be damage on all 3 tubes, not just the blue which you would then probably not want to bother fixing it.

And it wouldn't be worth while to pay a tech to check this.

[biggrigg]

Hello again everybody,

I finally got a chance to open up the tv to get a look at the CRT's and this is what I found out. The lens (I guess that's what its called) had a lot of dust on it, so I cleaned it off (per instructions on this site) and took a look into them with a flashlight. I don't see any phosphor burns that resemble what is pictured in the link Curt provided, but I do see some type of flakes laying on top of the color in the tubes. I'm not sure if its between the tube and the lens or in the tube itself. There are 4 screws holding the lens down and there is a wingnut that I believe is for adjustment. I'm a little leary of taking the 4 screws out to see if the flakes I see are on top of the tubes or inside.

Looking in from the front of the tv, from left to right, the tubes are red, green and I believe the last one should be blue, but it looks white. Does that mean the blue is shot?

I got the numbers off of the stickers on each of the tubes (or should I say the lenses) and this is what they are:

Red- 2005021020474311
Green- 2005021020471411
Blue-2005021020484811

and they all are from:

Delta Digital 260
3M Precision Optics
Cincinnati, OH

I contacted Gina at VDC and she still couldn't come up with the numbers and suggested sending one in to match it up. She also told me that most of their tubes are on sale for $99 right now. Macgyver posted a link on AVS with a tube from VDC, is that the number for the blue that fits my tv? If worst case senerio is just the tubes need replacing, can anybody here give me a ballpark figure what I would be charged for the work? Oh, this tv is an HD tv by the way. Thanks again for your help.

Mike

[Curt Palme]

I'm guessing you have tube fungus (which is what we call it) or at least contamination of the glycol cooling fluid, which you'll probably need to change anyways if you swap out the tubes.

I'll back off on any labor quotes I gave you above or at avs. I keep forgetting that labor rates seem to be higher in the US than in Canada, and I'm guessing that the $99 Gina quoted (great price BTW) is for the raw tube glass and HV lead only. You or the TV shop will be responsible for taking the old tube off the mounting housing, changing the glycol, etc.

So Mac could be right, unless you're doing this yourself completely, I'm guessing this could easily exceed the $300-400 that you want to spend. Doing it yourself would end up at the $99 plus about $25 for glycol, and 3-4 hours of your time.

[Curt Palme]

I'm guessing you have tube fungus (which is what we call it) or at least contamination of the glycol cooling fluid, which you'll probably need to change anyways if you swap out the tubes.

I'll back off on any labor quotes I gave you above or at avs. I keep forgetting that labor rates seem to be higher in the US than in Canada, and I'm guessing that the $99 Gina quoted (great price BTW) is for the raw tube glass and HV lead only. You or the TV shop will be responsible for taking the old tube off the mounting housing, changing the glycol, etc.

So Mac could be right, unless you're doing this yourself completely, I'm guessing this could easily exceed the $300-400 that you want to spend. Doing it yourself would end up at the $99 plus about $25 for glycol, and 3-4 hours of your time.

[kal]

[kal]

[macgyver655]

I'm only going to say this 1 more time. You need to remove the lenses and check the tubes phosphor.

[biggrigg]

Well, I finally got a chance to remove the lenses (sorry macgyver, you did tell me to do that) and have a few questions. It was mentioned that there is glycol in these tubes? I believe there is a metal plate that the lenses bolt to that hold the tubes down and I need to remove it to get the tube numbers? Will I have a problem with glycol leaking if I do this?

Looking into the blue lens, I do see a black dot in the center, so the blue needs to be replaced. Also, the red lens is red, green is green, but the blue one is white, does that mean its no good also?

As for the phosphor burn in the tubes, they are similar to #6 rating on your wear rating chart. Would you recommend replacing the other two, also?

I apologize for this thread dragging out so long, work keeps bouncing me from 1st to 3rd shift, when they decide to work me. Once I get the tube numbers, I'll decide if I'm fixing or pitching this set and stop bugging you gents. Thanks again for your patience and help.

Mike

[Curt Palme]

No, the tube number is on a sticker on the bell of the tube, on the back where the red HV lead is. DO NOT take anything else off. Frankly, if your tubes are that worn, I wouldn't bother with the set. That means you have 1000s of hours on the set, probably over 10K, and chances are the chassis will start falling apart shortly.

I'd give it a good burial.

[Curt Palme]

No, the tube number is on a sticker on the bell of the tube, on the back where the red HV lead is. DO NOT take anything else off. Frankly, if your tubes are that worn, I wouldn't bother with the set. That means you have 1000s of hours on the set, probably over 10K, and chances are the chassis will start falling apart shortly.

I'd give it a good burial.

[macgyver655]

[biggrigg]

Macgyver655

Took another look at the red and green tubes and do not see the spot I see on the blue (or any other spots for that matter).

The tube # you gave my over at AVS, is that just for the blue tube or are the red and blue #'s the same? I'm thinking that if the tubes are cheap enough, I might as well replace all 3.

I haven't begun searching for a searching for a repair shop yet, but if you know of one around Jackson, Michigan, I will have them come out and evaluate fixing this beast.

Thanks again,

Mike

[macgyver655]