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3D... It's working :)
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royuk




Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 41



PostLink    Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Continue the great work guys! Hope this 3D becomes viable for us CRT owners. Like all latest technologies it's nice to be able to have a piece of it. Personally i've just had my Barco 1209s running properly for the firs time since owning it for over 2 years and having spent a small fortune i definitely don't want to have to buy a digital pj, such as the new JVC models, as good as they are!
What i want is 3D on my current set-up and for the quality to be as good as can be done and at a reasonable price. Also something that is 'plug and play', like what the hdfury has allowed for blu-ray. I'm so pleased with my current set-up and the picture quality is fantastic. Losing some light and colour accuracy, for me personally when using 3D, is not a major issue. When i saw AVATAR at my local cineplex it really was impressive. So to have this at home would be fantastic. Having it really is a must the more i watch 3D movies and i hope for many that is the goal. It really allows you to get immersed in the movie like nothing before and surely that's a good thing? Sometimes many on these forums get too caught up in the very fine details. There are going to be some sacrifices but hopefully they will be small in the grand scheme of things. For if it can't be done successfully then many will move on to digitals, like myself. Firstly to have 3D which may then lead on to 2D as well!

roy
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dvh99




Joined: 25 Dec 2009
Posts: 2158
Location: nederland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mmmh these volfoni seem to be pretty nice, the glasses that are standard with panasonic television sets kept sliding from my nose Sad, this was incredibly annoying to say the least and very light weight glasses wouldnt have spoiled the 3d experience on that part.
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MikeEby




Joined: 24 Jun 2007
Posts: 5238
Location: Osceola, Indiana


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I honestly hope everyones results are much better than mine when trying to run 3d on their CRT. Perhaps a 9" projector will have enough brightness to overcome the loss of light. Also my setup was using nvidia glasses which might be somewhat darker than other glasses. My screen is an older 96" wide parkland plastics screen which by most account is about a 1.0 gain so this setup is probably less than ideal for 3D.

Prior to investing a ton of cash in a system I think I would recommend getting a pair of glasses and see how bright your image is on your setup without the glasses being active. Then keep in mind the light levels will drop another 10-20% when the classes are active. I'm just trying to save a few folks some disappointment.


Mike

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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I have a working frame-sequential firmware here from Lumagen that also can drive their "HDMI 3D Glasses sync extractor." I also have a hand built HDMI sync extractor that Jim made for me... it was waiting here for when I got back from California Smile I got to test the combo for the first time last night.

Below are two photos of the prototype glasses sync extractor. Radiance HDMI output 1 or 2 can be wired to the sync extractor to generate a TTL output for the glasses. I have mine plugged in at the projector and the video passes through and goes onto the G90. The sync extractor is the Lumagen HDMI-HDMI extender (http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=hdmiext_details) with the sync circuit added on. This provides good benefit if you need an HDMI extender because it is both an extender and sync extractor. The final product will obviously have a cover.





Here is a screen shot of the Radiance running frame-sequential 3D at 720p 96Hz on the G90 via Oppo BDP-93.





Overall, the picture looks really quite nice. However, I will say that there is some ghosting at the bottom of the screen as observed with the NVIDIA solution by others. Here is where it gets interesting... the thing is that I can change the characteristics of the ghosting by changing the timing of the glasses. But what is really interesting is that different glasses brands have different amounts of ghosting. Unfortunately I sold one of the brands I had here, but I still have the XPand 101's and also Samsung glasses. With the Samsung glasses there is much less ghosting that with the XPand glasses.

I have a theory on this. With the XPand 101 glasses (and some others I have tried), as soon as the glasses loose sight of the IR emitter, they stop their shutter action. In this case I believe that the glasses have a simple circuit design that relies exclusively on the timing signal from the transmitter.

Conversely, the Samsung glasses will keep their shutter action going for many seconds after the sync emitter is turned off. This impels that the Samsung glasses have a more complex brain that can keep time and maybe do some other things. What I suspect is that the Samsung glasses actually have a duration of time where both shutters are closed and I think this may reduce the ghosting.

What I intend to do next is buy a pair of the XPand 103 universal glasses. These glasses support most 3D protocols, so in theory, may support other functions of other glasses brands (I hope). My transmitter supports MANY protocol outputs, so what I want to do is try them all with the XPand 103's and see if any show little or no ghosting. We'll see.

I already thought about programming the timing to keep both shutters closed for a longer duration. It seems however that this is not possible because the TTL to the glasses transmitter can only send high / low (left / right) information, and not both at the same time. So this dual shutter timing would need to take place in the glasses themselves. I also wonder if it might be possible to alter the timing in the Samsung glasses to increase this period. I also suppose that it might be possible to add a timer delay to the dumb glasses like the XPand 101's (or maybe just a capacitor) to delay the opening of the shutter for a slight time after the TTL directs to the other eye.

I'll keep posting...

craigr

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Last edited by CIR Engineering on Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also one more note for what it's worth...

I am pretty certain that a dual CRT 3D projector solution fed from the Radiance processor would have zero ghosting. I see zero ghosting on my single G90 when I run 48Hz, but of course this flickers like mad.

I assume that if I were to split the projection duty between two G90's and feed right eye to one and left to the other projector at 96Hz that this would also eliminate ghosting. Each projector would only be running 48Hz, so I think this would work. The Radiance is already capable of doing this and I do have two very nice G90's here now, so I might try this down the road.

I think when I do the 3D demo here that I will show this on one G90, and also on a dual G90 system so people can compare. I may also set this up during CEDIA this year as it is taking place in Indianapolis which is only about 3 and a half hours drive. Jim Peterson and his wife will be coming to my place to see the system running as well (we have already made tentative plans). Others would be welcome during the demo as well.

craigr

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overclkr




Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 4227



PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I received my emitter and glasses this week and was succesful in getting 3D to work on my Sony Trinitron monitor with PS3 games with out issue with my moome3D. There are no ghosting issues to speak of so far and everything works pretty well. I've got the elcheapo glasses that came with my setup and for the most part the sync is working just fine. I'm hoping to get this working with my stack this weekend time willing.

My Radiance should be here next week as well so looking foward to adding it to the video chain. All I have left to do now is get my hands on a calibration kit to calibrate the projectors on the new resolutions as well. I was looking at those Xpad 103's as well and if nothing better comes out before cedia I will probably pick those up also.

I'm also planning a "cedia meet" as well to demo the system so hopefully all will be up and running by then. Smile
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more screen shot showing the Lumagen 3D controls menu.



Also, I have a technique that I thought through with Patrick today and applied. With this technique I have virtually zero ghosting. I will try and refine the idea sometime next week to see if it pans out the way I hope.

The Xpand 103's are nice. However, they don't play very nice with the transmitter I have. They do work, but only when the transmitter is set to emit Xpand cinema protocol. That is ok, but they are no better than the Samsung glasses on screen and they are a lot more expensive right now. Samsung glasses can be had for $50ish dollars on eBay while the Xpand 103's are well over $100 each.

craigr

_________________
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Gerbrand




Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199



PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
Also one more note for what it's worth...

I am pretty certain that a dual CRT 3D projector solution fed from the Radiance processor would have zero ghosting. I see zero ghosting on my single G90 when I run 48Hz, but of course this flickers like mad.

I assume that if I were to split the projection duty between two G90's and feed right eye to one and left to the other projector at 96Hz that this would also eliminate ghosting. Each projector would only be running 48Hz, so I think this would work.


Wouldn't eacht projector still be running at 96 Hz, since they are showing alternating full and blank frames? So, the ghosting would probably still be there. Basically you would see the decaying phosphor from the left eye projector in the image of the right eye projector.

From what I read, I could imagine that a better way of suppressing the ghosting might be to increase the V-porches a bit, giving the glasses more time to switch.

BTW, I love the work you are doing to get these old beasties to display 3D.


BR

Gerbrand

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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerbrand wrote:

Wouldn't eacht projector still be running at 96 Hz, since they are showing alternating full and blank frames? So, the ghosting would probably still be there. Basically you would see the decaying phosphor from the left eye projector in the image of the right eye projector.

Yes, you are correct that each projector will run 96Hz in a stacked 3D setup. But each projector will also alternate between an image frame and a black frame. It might still ghost, but it might not, I am not sure... but my hunch is that it will not ghost. That is my hunch and I feel pretty certain of it, but I could also be wrong Wink I am also wondering if running 1080i at 96Hz or 144Hz might show less or no ghosting. I can't test this for some time as the Radiance does not support 3D output with interlaced modes yet. Patrick said he would implement this for me down the road, but Lumagen has other priories first and I agree.

The next thing Patrick plans is to allow the Radiance to accept all 3D formats on the input (FP, SBS, TB...) and for the Radiance to auto detect the incoming format, and then convert to your given output mode (2D, 3DFP, 3DFS). There will also be an option to manually select the 3D input format so that you can force the Radiance into a given 3D mode in the case where the info frame does not contain 3D format data. This will be very useful for many things including legacy media servers (DUNE, PCH...) that can play TB and SBS, but that can't give 3D format data to the display through the info frame because they lack the hardware. With the manual select, you can play 3D files from any source (even non-3D sources) and correctly watch the files as long as they are within the bandwidth limitations of the source device (ie 1080p 60Hz SBS).

Gerbrand wrote:

From what I read, I could imagine that a better way of suppressing the ghosting might be to increase the V-porches a bit, giving the glasses more time to switch.

You are right on top of it man Smile This is what I was playing around with yesterday to virtually eliminate ghosting. This is an email I sent to Patrick a few days ago...

Patrick wrote:
Not sure why the bottom part of the screen would have more ghosting. Seems like the phosphors would all exhibit the same effect when flipping between images regardless of being toward the top or bottom. Do you know why that would be?

Then I wrote back:
It makes sense when you think about how a CRT displays the image. The electron beam starts closest to the shutter timing (top left), but then the beam sweeps down to the bottom right. This means that the phosphors at the bottom of the screen are the ones that were excited the latest with respect to shutter timing. I think because of this, the phosphors at the top have had more time (enough decay) not to ghost. In other words, the phosphors at the bottom of the screen ghost because they were more recently excited than the phosphors at the top; so the bottom decay is behind in real time.

The evening before this I tried playing with V-porches and it didn't work. But then Pat and I spoke on the phone after the emails and he gave me some new ideas. The new applications I started yesterday are working, but I want to refine them more so that they work better. As of now, there is pretty much no ghosting problems. If you pause a BD and study the image you can find a little ghosting, but IMHO it is quite acceptable. What I want to figure out is optimal porches and glasses timing on my setup. The rub is that it will be different for different model projectors and glasses. So most likely what I derive on a G90 will not work on a 9500...

Gerbrand wrote:

BTW, I love the work you are doing to get these old beasties to display 3D.

Gerbrand

Thanks, I'll keep it up!

craigr

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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Patrick at Lumagen posted the first official CRT 3D firmware to their web site last evening. It might be a little buggy (might not), but it is the first official CRT 3D beta release that is available to all Smile

Lumagen wrote:

Production 012011- Added frame sequential ability for 3D output for use with 3D on CRT displays. Menu improvements under the Input:Video Setup:RES menu area for Output1 and 2 select menus. There are now Output2D and 3D Select menus and under each menu you can setup Output1 and 2. In the Output3D Select menu you can select 3D output modes as before but we've added the ability to select the 3D type. The 3D type can be Auto,TopB (top-bottom),SByS (side by side) ,FrmP (frame packed), FSeq (frame sequential) and Off. We're still adding capabilities so not all of these are allowed yet. Bugfixes for a test pattern issue, mode timing setup issues, mode information display. Bugfix for setting input color space and getting a shrunk version of input video. Bugfix for a copy issue with input memories. Fix for an issue with hotplug and NuVision displays that could result in a blank screen. Bugfix for not picking up 720p60 3D on power-up. Some fixes for taking 720p60 frame-packed 3D and driving out 1080p60 left or right eye only. Changes to Output menu to simplify things a bit with regards to Out1, Out2 and 3D setup commands. These commands are all under the heading Global Setup under the Output menu section. Added rs232 command for setting 3D output for left, right or both eyes (command format is "ZY47X" where X is L,R or B). Added another trigger output option.


http://www.lumagen.com/testindex.php?module=updates

If you have a 3D glasses emitter and sync extractor you can now use your Radiance to show 3D on your CRT.

Regards,
craigr

_________________
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Gerbrand




Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great to hear the last kinks are being ironed out! I start considering getting myself one of those Radiances.

Gerbrand

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Alan Head




Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerbrand wrote:


From what I read, I could imagine that a better way of suppressing the ghosting might be to increase the V-porches a bit, giving the glasses more time to switch.

Gerbrand



Interesting I have just spent the day adjusting h-porches to virtually eliminate ghosting issues. I have posted the details over on the Lumagen forum.

I suspect the best solution will involve a little tweaking of each.

I wish there was a better way of describing ghosting.

Ghosting can be caused by slow phosphor decay, in the case of my G90 (p19lug tubes) this does not appear to be a major issue.

Ghosting can also be caused by crosstalk where part of the left image appears with the right image. In my experience this is what I am seeing on the G90. As far as I can tell this is a timing issue.

regards

Alan
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Head wrote:
Gerbrand wrote:


From what I read, I could imagine that a better way of suppressing the ghosting might be to increase the V-porches a bit, giving the glasses more time to switch.

Gerbrand



Interesting I have just spent the day adjusting h-porches to virtually eliminate ghosting issues. I have posted the details over on the Lumagen forum.

I suspect the best solution will involve a little tweaking of each.

I wish there was a better way of describing ghosting.

Ghosting can be caused by slow phosphor decay, in the case of my G90 (p19lug tubes) this does not appear to be a major issue.

Ghosting can also be caused by crosstalk where part of the left image appears with the right image. In my experience this is what I am seeing on the G90. As far as I can tell this is a timing issue.

regards

Alan

It is easy to identify phosphor ghosting, and there is some on the G90, especially with short vertical timings. This is because the green is the slowest phosphor.

To determine if the ghost is phosphor, simply mute the red and blue tubes and look at the green only. Next mute green and turn red and blue back on. If the phosphor ghosting is the problem the red and blue (magenta image) will not be ghosting, but the green will. If all three tubes are ghosting the same amount, the problem is a timing issue.

Alan, could you please post the timings you are using to reduce (or eliminate) ghosting? Could you also please post a link to your post on the Lumagen forum? Thank you.

Regards,

craigr

_________________
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Alan Head




Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:


Alan, could you please post the timings you are using to reduce (or eliminate) ghosting? Could you also please post a link to your post on the Lumagen forum? Thank you.

Regards,

craigr


Lumagen post here :- http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=2185&start=0&rid=0&S=beba7ae50857840f532e63253dfebf50

timings :-


PS3 GAMES 3D mode

vtotal 925 htotal 1500
vactive 720 hactive 1280
vfront 100 hfront 40
vsync 5 hsync 100
vrate 119.98 Hz Clock 166472250 Hz


BLURAY 3D mode

vtotal 925 htotal 1500
vactive 720 hactive 1280
vfront 100 hfront 40
vsync 5 hsync 100
vrate 95.92 Hz Clock 133089000 Hz


Sky 3DTV

vtotal 1285 htotal 1156
vactive 1080 hactive 960
vfront 100 hfront 57
vsync 5 hsync 44
vrate 100 Hz Clock 148546000 Hz



Alan
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Head wrote:

Lumagen post here :- http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=2185&start=0&rid=0&S=beba7ae50857840f532e63253dfebf50

timings :-


PS3 GAMES 3D mode

vtotal 925 htotal 1500
vactive 720 hactive 1280
vfront 100 hfront 40
vsync 5 hsync 100
vrate 119.98 Hz Clock 166472250 Hz


BLURAY 3D mode

vtotal 925 htotal 1500
vactive 720 hactive 1280
vfront 100 hfront 40
vsync 5 hsync 100
vrate 95.92 Hz Clock 133089000 Hz


Sky 3DTV

vtotal 1285 htotal 1156
vactive 1080 hactive 960
vfront 100 hfront 57
vsync 5 hsync 44
vrate 100 Hz Clock 148546000 Hz



Alan


I find this puzzling Alan, especially your Sky timings. This is because you say Vactive = 1080. However, the Radiance is not yet supporting more than 810 Vactive lines with the current firmware in frame-sequential output mode. Also, Hactive cannot be less than 1280 with the current firmware. Have you actually tried this resolution, or is this hypothetical?

Regards,
craigr

_________________
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CIR Engineering




Joined: 25 Aug 2008
Posts: 4264
Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany


PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, we have both come to the same Vfront = 100 solution Smile It seems perfect with Vfront at 100 lines.

craigr

_________________
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Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
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*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying Wink
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Gerbrand




Joined: 13 May 2008
Posts: 199



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:
Also, we have both come to the same Vfront = 100 solution Smile It seems perfect with Vfront at 100 lines.

craigr


The Vfront=100 seems to make sense, numerically. Since shutter glasses are essentially LCD panels, I would expect them to have switching times of the order of a few milliseconds. With a Vfreq of 48 Hz, each frame lasts around 20 ms, so 100 lines would correspond to about 100/1080*20 ms = 2 ms (assuming you are doing 1080p).

I also cannot see how an increased H-porch would help, though.

BR

Gerbrand

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Alan Head




Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CIR Engineering wrote:


I find this puzzling Alan, especially your Sky timings. This is because you say Vactive = 1080. However, the Radiance is not yet supporting more than 810 Vactive lines with the current firmware in frame-sequential output mode. Also, Hactive cannot be less than 1280 with the current firmware. Have you actually tried this resolution, or is this hypothetical?

Regards,
craigr


Currently I can only use the 3D timings for BLU RAY and PS3 Games in frame-sequential output.

As you say the current firmware will not run 3D at 960 x 1080 @100Hz in frame-sequential mode. I expect we may need to wait for fseq2 (or some other name) to handle this resolution from a side by side input. It will however run 2D 960 x 1080p @ 100 Hz. This allows me to create a mode that will handle 3D when it becomes available. In 2D it allows me to setup the G90 memory for convergence, size etc. Both the Radiance and the G90 can handle these timings. I initially ran the timings for Sky 3DTV using an htpc and Nvidia GT240 Video card.


Alan
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Alan Head




Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38



PostLink    Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gerbrand wrote:


I also cannot see how an increased H-porch would help, though.

BR

Gerbrand



Sorry, a typo/brain fade on my part, as you can see from the timings I posted I have been adjusting the vertical porches. Embarassed

I agree, increasing the H-porch would not help. However reducing the H-Porches would help recover some of the bandwidth that we have added by increasing the vertical porches.

Ultimately we want the best quality image with the minimum possible bandwidth that is why I said that I suspect the best solution will involve tweaking both h and v porches. (decrease H, increase V)


Alan


Last edited by Alan Head on Sun Feb 06, 2011 11:15 am; edited 2 times in total
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Alan Head




Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 38



PostLink    Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alan Head previously wrote:

Ghosting can be caused by slow phosphor decay, in the case of my G90 (p19lug tubes) this does not appear to be a major issue.

Ghosting can also be caused by crosstalk where part of the left image appears with the right image. In my experience this is what I am seeing on the G90. As far as I can tell this is a timing issue.

Alan


A third potential cause of ghosting is in the glasses themselves.

If the glasses briefly have both eyes open at the same time as they switch from left eye shut, right eye open to right eye shut, left eye open then no 3D effect is seen as effectively the glasses are not working. The part of the image that is being drawn at that point would exhibit ghosting.

If the glasses are not dark enough when they shutter then a ghosting effect similar to phosphor persistence may also be seen.


As far as I am aware the modern glasses handle this at the glasses end and we have no way of modifying the parameters.

In an ideal world we would have access to sync pulse parameters and an overlap parameter that would allow us to fine tune how long the glasses have both eyes closed. This could be fine tuned to give a balance between image brightness and elimination of ghosting.


Alan
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