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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:08 am Post subject: Audio Calibration et al |
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So, I am trying to wrap my head around the Hsu+Denon to make sure I get the most from this new subwoofer. Hsu's quick setup suggests setting the volume to the 9 o'clock position, the crossover to Out (disables internal crossover), and then setting the LFE in the AVR to 90 Hz.
With the Hsu in place, I ran the Denon's Audyssey feature, which as predicted identified the FR/C/FL channels as large. But what was not predicted was that it set the LPF for the LFE to 60 Hz. To me, 60 Hz seems rather low when Hsu is suggesting the VTF-15h should be receiving from 90 Hz down.
If I do not use the Audyssey Auto Setup results as a default I lose some features I think I will not miss. With this in mind, I can set the FR/FL channels to Small (from Large) and adjust the LPF for LFE to 80-90 Hz. The question is how this will affect the center channel (set it to Small also?), and if I should use Bass Settings to just LFE or to LFE+Main*.
* LFE+Main will send the signals for all channels at the LPF crossover to the subwoofer.
Ideas, suggestions? And none of this speaks of the end results (what I hear) when playing DTS, DTS-HD, Dolby non-HD and Dolby True HD formats.
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Wan,
I don't know why HSU suggest 90hz as a LPF, but 60hz is definitely lower than I'd expect.
You have big mains - and big amps - I'd leave them set as large, and set all three mains the same.
Alternately, you could try setting the crossover on the mains really low - like 50hz - and the LFE LPF at 90hz.
What Audyssey features do you lose if you set custom settings?
SC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:07 am Post subject: |
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MultiEQ XT, Dynamic EQ, and Dynamic Volume. The PDF manual is 27MB (21MB zipped!), but is located here. It begins around page 75 and goes on through manual in 79.
I think since I've already performed the Audyssey Auto Setup I will make adjustments. First will be to use Manual Setup to change the LPF from 60 to 90 Hz, but I'll do LFE+Main so everything under 90Hz goes to the Hsu. I'll then check the FR/FL crossovers and adjust them accordingly--no reason to not use the pair of 8.5" woofers in the fronts.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5321
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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I've always been of the crowd that says use "small" if you have a sub and "large" if you don't.
I have never taken any measurements but I like the sound that way.
I have 12" woofers across the front set to "small" but I haven't gone through the Audyssey setup yet.
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akajester
Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 934 Location: Wisconsin
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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greg_mitch wrote: | I've always been of the crowd that says use "small" if you have a sub and "large" if you don't.
I have never taken any measurements but I like the sound that way.
I have 12" woofers across the front set to "small" but I haven't gone through the Audyssey setup yet. |
Greg, I've been the same way. I also set my LFE crossover to 80hz. I have an SVS sub though, and I thought that was the recommended setup for the unit.
I did use Room EQ wizard with a SPL meter and everything checked out.
dale
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Dale, it's not a "crossover" on the LFE - it's a low-pass filter... Meaning, the frequencies above your set point get rolled off at the slope in the processor. What do you have for mains?
Greg... You've got 12" drivers, but you're doing redirection? If you're going to set up the mains as "small" and redirect everything below, say 80hz, then why did you bother with the big speakers with 12" drivers at all? You could have used a speaker half- or a third the size and used 8-inch mid-bass drivers. At least tell me you have the HPF on the mains set at like 40hz or something...
SC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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You know, the same thing can be asked of me, SC. In hindsight, I had no need to the Studio 100's when I know I was introducing a sub.
_________________ Trust no one. Absolutely no one. Advice of the board.
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly my point. What center are you using, Wan? Are you timbre-matching to the mains?
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5321
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: | Dale, it's not a "crossover" on the LFE - it's a low-pass filter... Meaning, the frequencies above your set point get rolled off at the slope in the processor. What do you have for mains?
Greg... You've got 12" drivers, but you're doing redirection? If you're going to set up the mains as "small" and redirect everything below, say 80hz, then why did you bother with the big speakers with 12" drivers at all? You could have used a speaker half- or a third the size and used 8-inch mid-bass drivers. At least tell me you have the HPF on the mains set at like 40hz or something...
SC |
The size of the speaker doesn't necessarily have any direct correlation to what the frequency response of the speaker as a whole is. (ooo ended with is...bad!).
The 12" woofer was specifically picked for the build for its high-efficiency characteristics (pro audio driver) and other reasons that I don't even know to be honest.
You could fairly easily design a speaker that only plays down to 100 Hz with a 12" or 15" driver I am pretty sure.
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akajester
Joined: 09 Jul 2008 Posts: 934 Location: Wisconsin
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: | Dale, it's not a "crossover" on the LFE - it's a low-pass filter... Meaning, the frequencies above your set point get rolled off at the slope in the processor. What do you have for mains?
SC |
ecrabb, in ffdshow audio codec the feature is called LFE crossover, and does exactly what you mention. I don't know if the terminology is wrong, but it's set to 80hz.
Dale
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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That's true, Greg... I was making assumptions... So, what is their approximate -3db point?
SC
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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akajester wrote: | ecrabb, in ffdshow audio codec the feature is called LFE crossover, and does exactly what you mention. I don't know if the terminology is wrong, but it's set to 80hz. |
OK, the ffdshow developers are using the terminology incorrectly! Seriously, though... The term "crossover" implies at least a two- way design - or, multiple filters. The LFE setting is a simple low-pass filter, because everything above a certain point (at whatever slope the filter uses) is just gone.
SC
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5321
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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ecrabb wrote: | That's true, Greg... I was making assumptions... So, what is their approximate -3db point?
SC |
That is a good question!
The original crossover modeled in a certain box with my drivers showed up as 188Hz as the -3db but I increased the box dimensions and in WinISD with bare driver modeling it is 48Hz.
I wonder how those two interact and what the final freq response is?! Some day I will pull out the boxes and microphone and measure the stuff!
It's obvious I built the speaker...didn't design it!
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I didn't expect you to have measured or even designed it knowing the exact figures, Greg... I just figured there was a spec somewhere from whoever did design it... But, it sounds like you modded the design a little, anyway. Wow, so 48... Those are pretty stiff drivers, then... I see what you mean about efficiency, then.
OK, so I guess you're fine running it "small", which just means the surround processor will do redirection... But, I assume you've set the crossover at something lower than typical - say 55hz or something - well below the speaker design's low rolloff...
You and Wan could both do that, actually. That way, the mains roll off at say 50 or 55hz (for instance)... Then, that gets mixed with the LFE track, which may or may not have higher frequencies than that. Then you have the LP filter set on the sub at say 90hz, which just ensures a smooth roll-off instead of the 110- or 120hz brick wall (or whatever it is in Dolby Digital, in the unlikely even the sound engineer let source material hit the brick wall). That takes some heat off the mains (and the main amps), puts a little more oomph into the subs, and should still give you nice, inaudible transition. Might have to play with it to find the ideal transition frequency as that's getting low enough that it could be happening around some room nulls/nodes (which may or may not be beneficial).
SC
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:43 am Post subject: |
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So, I set the FR/FL speakers to small and the Bass setting to LFE+Mains. I then started trying the LPF at 90 Hz and went up to 100 and left it there. Of course, inserting the Sin City BD and letting it sit at the main menu (where you can select Play) provided enough bass material so that the room upstairs was shaking. LOL
I kept wondering why the Denon was displaying Multichannel In and not DTS-HD, but then referring to the manual again revealed the Sony BD player must be outputting PCM as p.46 of the Denon manual concludes this. Time to go back and learn the Sony BD player. Connectivity is all through HDMI.
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dturco
Joined: 06 Feb 2009 Posts: 3779 Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
TV/Projector: Runco DLP VX-3000i Marquee 9500 parts doner
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Link Posted: Wed Dec 15, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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WanMan wrote: | So, I set the FR/FL speakers to small and the Bass setting to LFE+Mains. I then started trying the LPF at 90 Hz and went up to 100 and left it there. Of course, inserting the Sin City BD and letting it sit at the main menu (where you can select Play) provided enough bass material so that the room upstairs was shaking. LOL
I kept wondering why the Denon was displaying Multichannel In and not DTS-HD, but then referring to the manual again revealed the Sony BD player must be outputting PCM as p.46 of the Denon manual concludes this. Time to go back and learn the Sony BD player. Connectivity is all through HDMI. |
Some of the older Blu-rays have to have the DTS MA, and DD Plus, picked in the audio menu. It might not be the player but the way the Disc was authored.
And some could be the player as well if you haven't chosen the defaults in the audio menu.
_________________ Firefly rules. Can't stop the signal.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I re-run the Audyssey setup, save the calibration and then made some minor changes (FR/C/FL set to Small, Bass set to LFE+Mains, LPF to 100 Hz). I then went into the Sony BDP-BX1 (S350 knockoff from Costco) and made sure that Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD took preference over any other audio output on the HDMI interface.
I then put in Star Trek and Selected the Dolby TrueHD output and the Denon continued to display Multichannel In instead of Dolby TrueHD. I then repeated the experiment with Sin City and its DTS track. Before I consider the Denon firmware upgrade I think I'll try another BD player.
I have an LG BD550, Panasonic DMP-BD35, and Sony PS3 Slim in addition to the BX1. Some others had trouble with their PS3 not sending Dolby TrueHD and or DTS-HD to their Denon 3311 and it was resolved when they enabled Bitstream under the HDMI Audio setting. Unfortunately, the BX1 makes no note of 'bitstream'.
As a side note, there have been some recent horror stories in regards to the before/after in Denon firmware upgrade. Some had to do it via disk because their Ethernet port contained no MAC address. Ouch! Mine has a sticker on the back with the MAC address, so I plugged it into the LAN, turned it on, and 2-3 minutes later was asked if I wanted to begin the available firmware upgrade.
I declined then then was presented with the Networking service screen, which included Internet radio. SWEET!!! Within seconds I was listening to Internet radio channels in Europe, from classical (yawn), to talk (boring), to music (kewl!). I made need to go ahead and turn on one of the PCs on the LAN that is running a DLNA media server and have at it. Wife was very impressed!
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006 Posts: 5321
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Link Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:29 am Post subject: |
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WanMan wrote: | Ok, I re-run the Audyssey setup, save the calibration and then made some minor changes (FR/C/FL set to Small, Bass set to LFE+Mains, LPF to 100 Hz). I then went into the Sony BDP-BX1 (S350 knockoff from Costco) and made sure that Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD took preference over any other audio output on the HDMI interface.
I then put in Star Trek and Selected the Dolby TrueHD output and the Denon continued to display Multichannel In instead of Dolby TrueHD. I then repeated the experiment with Sin City and its DTS track. Before I consider the Denon firmware upgrade I think I'll try another BD player.
I have an LG BD550, Panasonic DMP-BD35, and Sony PS3 Slim in addition to the BX1. Some others had trouble with their PS3 not sending Dolby TrueHD and or DTS-HD to their Denon 3311 and it was resolved when they enabled Bitstream under the HDMI Audio setting. Unfortunately, the BX1 makes no note of 'bitstream'.
As a side note, there have been some recent horror stories in regards to the before/after in Denon firmware upgrade. Some had to do it via disk because their Ethernet port contained no MAC address. Ouch! Mine has a sticker on the back with the MAC address, so I plugged it into the LAN, turned it on, and 2-3 minutes later was asked if I wanted to begin the available firmware upgrade.
I declined then then was presented with the Networking service screen, which included Internet radio. SWEET!!! Within seconds I was listening to Internet radio channels in Europe, from classical (yawn), to talk (boring), to music (kewl!). I made need to go ahead and turn on one of the PCs on the LAN that is running a DLNA media server and have at it. Wife was very impressed! |
I have been pretty impressed while streaming Pandora on my new receiver while working on other things downstairs around the theater.
I would bet your Sony does the decoding and can't bitstream crap so it will likely always say "multichannel" on the Denon with that player.
It seemed like the cheaper players and earlier players all did internal decoding and just sent 7 channel lossless to the receiver.
How big of a difference has it been pre and post Audyssey?
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:32 am Post subject: |
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The differences between non-Audyssey and post [first] Audyssey is a big difference. Heck, I didn't have any LFE channel beforehand. Between Audyssey runs it is not making a difference, but opened the rear surround channels (original Aud. run forgot to Amp assign thus making them available for Zone 1 and not Zone 2/3.
I hadn't even heard of Pandora until recently, and only 'now' checked their website out. Seems pretty cool. Me likey!
I'm still going to try the PS3 Slim and following someone's lead in the AV$ 3311 thread setup for Bitstream. Greg, you did hit on an interesting point, though, about the player decoding and not providing an external means for decoding the desired formats. Maybe I'm being picky.
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 Posts: 10273
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Link Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:15 am Post subject: |
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Damnit Janet! While Sony requires one to go into the PS3 and set the BD Audio to Bitstream to get HD Audio to be externally decoded, the BX1 is the f-ing opposite. God damn, Sony!
In other news, I noticed late yesterday that Electronics Expo, where I bought my Denon 3311 for $800, has a couple of open box units they are selling for a hair under $500. I told the wife i am so tempted to buy another one. I could put it in her music room and she can stream radio as well as play CDs.
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