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martist
Joined: 01 Nov 2009 Posts: 24
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Link Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:40 pm Post subject: comparison between the moome ext v2 and fury 3? |
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hello ,
Just like the title says.
I need one of these , but waiting for the reviews and user comments.
Regards,
Tony
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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I have worked quite a bit with both and have done extensive testing on both.
The Moome is of much higher performance than the HDF3 for high frequencies like 1080P 60Hz and beyond. If you have an 8" or 7" projector you will probably not see much (or any) difference on the screen, but if you have a 9" like a G90 or 9500LC modified there is a sharper image with the Moome.
The HDF3 is produced in larger quantities and will probably be well supported. The Moome is a boutique product produced in small batches with only Moome behind it so support can be slow.
Here are scope shots of both the Moome v2 and HDF3 running 1080p 60Hz multiburst off my Accupel HDG-4000. You can make the call.
First photo Moome EXTv2.
Second photo HDF3 new firmware.
Ideally, all the bands should have the same peak to peak (p-p) voltage. ie they should all be the same height in an ideal word. The closer the bands are to the same height, the sharper the card will be.
craigr
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martist
Joined: 01 Nov 2009 Posts: 24
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Link Posted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Thx, for the reply.
I am going to buy the moome card.
Kindly regards,
Tony
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RogueChili
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Westfield, MA
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Link Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting data Craigr! If you have the time, I would like to see a zoomed in view of the first and last bursts for both devices(only the upper area near the 100% graticule), and a shot of the corresponding input signals.
Thanks
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Jackal29a
Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 22
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Hi Craig,
Do you get the same results outputting 1080i? if so, do you think this difference will be visible with real material on a 36" screen at 7-8ft?
I was almost decided on an HD3 when I found that not only the ExtV2 can now output YUV and its also a little cheaper but it seems it also has a better picture. I'll be using whatever I finally get with 36" CRT that only supports YPbPr 1080i@50 & 1080i@60Hz (I use them both) and I'm would really appreciate some info on how they compare PQ wise. I have a VP50 so some adjustments can be done before the signal gets to the converter.
Cheers
Javier
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Jackal29a wrote: | Hi Craig,
Do you get the same results outputting 1080i? if so, do you think this difference will be visible with real material on a 36" screen at 7-8ft?
I was almost decided on an HD3 when I found that not only the ExtV2 can now output YUV and its also a little cheaper but it seems it also has a better picture. I'll be using whatever I finally get with 36" CRT that only supports YPbPr 1080i@50 & 1080i@60Hz (I use them both) and I'm would really appreciate some info on how they compare PQ wise. I have a VP50 so some adjustments can be done before the signal gets to the converter.
Cheers
Javier |
1080i is still attenuated on the HDF2 and HDF3 products, but the results are not the same as shown with 1080p.
Between the HDF3 and HDF2, the HDF3 is MUCH better in every category and as a result the HDF3 has a better image. I would recommend the HDF3 for you.
You will not see the problems I documented on your display device (or even a 73" rear projection display). With a 36" direct view monitor, there is much more attenuation in the video chain inside the monitor than what the HDF's are doing. Your monitor is far from perfect. Furthermore, the size of the screen is so (relatively) small that you don't need to come anywhere close to fully resolving HD. It will look fantastic even if more than 50% of the image is attenuated.
Really the only time you need to retain all the bandwidth is with large screens. The larger the screen, the softer the image will get with attenuation.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
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Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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RogueChili wrote: | Interesting data Craigr! If you have the time, I would like to see a zoomed in view of the first and last bursts for both devices(only the upper area near the 100% graticule), and a shot of the corresponding input signals.
Thanks |
Sorry, no can do. I had some of the cards on lone, some were mine and I sold them... The only IFB's and card I have left in the shop are the current Moome Sony IFB, John's old Sony DVI IFB, and a new HDF3. I am supposed to be getting another HDF3 with some updates on it soon though.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
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Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
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*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
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Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
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www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Jackal29a
Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 22
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | 1080i is still attenuated on the HDF2 and HDF3 products, but the results are not the same as shown with 1080p.
Between the HDF3 and HDF2, the HDF3 is MUCH better in every category and as a result the HDF3 has a better image. I would recommend the HDF3 for you.
You will not see the problems I documented on your display device (or even a 73" rear projection display). With a 36" direct view monitor, there is much more attenuation in the video chain inside the monitor than what the HDF's are doing. Your monitor is far from perfect. Furthermore, the size of the screen is so (relatively) small that you don't need to come anywhere close to fully resolving HD. It will look fantastic even if more than 50% of the image is attenuated.
Really the only time you need to retain all the bandwidth is with large screens. The larger the screen, the softer the image will get with attenuation.
craigr |
Thanks for the info Craig but I was asking about EXT V2 Vs HDF3 and not HDF2, would you still recommend the HDF3 (its 20$ more expensive) over Moome's one?
Btw, I read somewhere that my TV had somehting like 900 lines of "real" resultion so probably either one's performance is way beyond the TV capabilities but still...
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RogueChili
Joined: 31 Mar 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Westfield, MA
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | RogueChili wrote: | Interesting data Craigr! If you have the time, I would like to see a zoomed in view of the first and last bursts for both devices(only the upper area near the 100% graticule), and a shot of the corresponding input signals.
Thanks |
Sorry, no can do. I had some of the cards on lone, some were mine and I sold them... The only IFB's and card I have left in the shop are the current Moome Sony IFB, John's old Sony DVI IFB, and a new HDF3. I am supposed to be getting another HDF3 with some updates on it soon though.
craigr |
The reason I ask is that that signal looks so bad! Assuming the input signal is from the Sencore (almost perfect) and the max frequency of the multiburst is 6mhz, I wouldn’t expect that much attenuation seen in the last burst or that much tilt on the first square wave.
Is this typical of these interface devices?
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Jackal29a wrote: | CIR Engineering wrote: | 1080i is still attenuated on the HDF2 and HDF3 products, but the results are not the same as shown with 1080p.
Between the HDF3 and HDF2, the HDF3 is MUCH better in every category and as a result the HDF3 has a better image. I would recommend the HDF3 for you.
You will not see the problems I documented on your display device (or even a 73" rear projection display). With a 36" direct view monitor, there is much more attenuation in the video chain inside the monitor than what the HDF's are doing. Your monitor is far from perfect. Furthermore, the size of the screen is so (relatively) small that you don't need to come anywhere close to fully resolving HD. It will look fantastic even if more than 50% of the image is attenuated.
Really the only time you need to retain all the bandwidth is with large screens. The larger the screen, the softer the image will get with attenuation.
craigr |
Thanks for the info Craig but I was asking about EXT V2 Vs HDF3 and not HDF2, would you still recommend the HDF3 (its 20$ more expensive) over Moome's one?
Btw, I read somewhere that my TV had somehting like 900 lines of "real" resultion so probably either one's performance is way beyond the TV capabilities but still... |
I personally would take the Moome, but both will have different virtues for your application.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Jackal29a wrote: | CIR Engineering wrote: | 1080i is still attenuated on the HDF2 and HDF3 products, but the results are not the same as shown with 1080p.
Between the HDF3 and HDF2, the HDF3 is MUCH better in every category and as a result the HDF3 has a better image. I would recommend the HDF3 for you.
You will not see the problems I documented on your display device (or even a 73" rear projection display). With a 36" direct view monitor, there is much more attenuation in the video chain inside the monitor than what the HDF's are doing. Your monitor is far from perfect. Furthermore, the size of the screen is so (relatively) small that you don't need to come anywhere close to fully resolving HD. It will look fantastic even if more than 50% of the image is attenuated.
Really the only time you need to retain all the bandwidth is with large screens. The larger the screen, the softer the image will get with attenuation.
craigr |
Thanks for the info Craig but I was asking about EXT V2 Vs HDF3 and not HDF2, would you still recommend the HDF3 (its 20$ more expensive) over Moome's one?
Btw, I read somewhere that my TV had somehting like 900 lines of "real" resultion so probably either one's performance is way beyond the TV capabilities but still... |
Does your monitor accept RGB or just component? I think only the HDF3 will be able to support component... I am not sure that the Moome does.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
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Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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RogueChili wrote: |
The reason I ask is that that signal looks so bad! Assuming the input signal is from the Sencore (almost perfect) and the max frequency of the multiburst is 6mhz, I wouldn’t expect that much attenuation seen in the last burst or that much tilt on the first square wave.
Is this typical of these interface devices? |
The source is actually the DVI output from my Accupel HDG-4000. The HDG-4000 is MUCH better than the Sencore for a point of reference. The source can be considered perfect pretty much because all it is doing to create a multiburst is to alternate black and white pixels. This is one thing that is very easy for a good pattern generator to do in the digital domain, but gets VERY difficult at high frequencies in an analog device like a transcoder.
I know, the signal does look bad and yes it is typical. You should see some of the early Moome cards on a scope How good or bad the transcoder looks is all about the hardware design. Moome did a fabulous job making sure that his external box supplies the best signal that any external box has ever offered. The HDF1 was actually pretty good too, but it is a bit noisy and also does not support YCbCr digital like the HDF2, HDF3, or Moome external HDMI.
Just for laughs, here is a Moome v1.72 from several years ago.
HAHAHA. And people actually thought it looked good. The HDF1 absolutely blew this Moome card out of the water. I am glad Moome got better with time
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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ecrabb Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 15909 Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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CIR Engineering wrote: | Just for laughs, here is a Moome v1.72 from several years ago. |
Wow, no HF roll-off there, eh?
SC
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Jackal29a
Joined: 20 Nov 2009 Posts: 22
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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Only component, its not really a monitor like in "high end" monitor, just a TV.
Moome says here the EXT V2 can now do component output:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20548
Quote: | Both will have different virtues for your application |
This is exactly what I was asking, which one is better at what. I haven't been able to find a shoot out.
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AnalogRocks Forum Moderator
Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 26690 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TV/Projector: Sony 1252Q, AMPRO 4000G
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CIR Engineering
Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 4264 Location: Chicago USA & Berlin Germany
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Link Posted: Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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AnalogRocks wrote: |
Is that the DVI/Component input card? |
It is one of them. I think Moome had at least two different DVI / analog component IFB's.
craigr
_________________ *NEW JETI 1501-HiRes 2nm Spectroradiometer
JETI 1211 Spectroradiometer
Photo Research PR-650 Spectroradiometer
Klein K10-A Colorimeter
X-Rite i1Pro2 Spectroradiometer & Spyder Colorimeters *For JVC auto-calibration when Klein & Jeti are not applicable
Murideo Fresco SIX-G HDMI 2.x Multimedia Generator
Murideo Fresco SIX-A HDMI 2.x Analyzer
*NEW Light Illusion ColourSpace XPT Version β Color Calibration Software
Light Illusion LightSpace XPT Pro Version 10.x Color Calibration Software
*NEW OMARDRIS JVC Software Patch to use K10-A and Jeti with JVC OEM AutoCal Software!
Sencore CR7000 CRT Tube Analyzer / Rejuvenater
Authorized Dealer for Lumagen & just about everything worth buying
www.CIR-Engineering.com - craigr@cir-engineering.com
Phone: 865-405-6892
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Oliver Klohs
Joined: 13 Mar 2008 Posts: 15
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Link Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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Craig,
cool oscilloscope shots - that moome DVI is my favourite
Can you please tell us which frequency is represented by each of these bands ?
Thanks!
Oliver
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