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How to add an Isolation Transformer to AV system.Thanks Bob!
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Gary M.
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PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Nashou66 wrote:
they had it for a buy it now for 489, I was bidding on another two that I thought i could get for less one was 5KVA the other 3KVA. So I figured I'd low ball and see what there counter offer was. I offered 250 and to my suprise they took it!!! Shipping was 120. This thing is as heavy as my Marquee!! I need to figure a way to strap it to my wall the sub panel box is. It looks like it was specially made and fed a single 240 line in,as thats how it was configured when i got it . I just do not know how to get my 60 amp fuse output from my main panel it comes out to the sub panel Via two 110 lines. as you can see one feeds the upper hot bus and the other the lower hot bus for a total of three circuit breakers being able to be fed on each bar. So the two questions are,

1) how do I connect two 110 lines to the primaries?
2) how do i connect a single 120 or 110 to the two hot bus bars in the sub panel?

Oh ! and that Sub panel box is for Equipment and router only. no Lights or motors beside the fans of the PJ's.

Gary there a few on e-bay right now. I was even thinking of going one step further for the marquees in the blend and get two smaller Iso's that can just be pluged in to the wall sockets so i'll have a cascading Isolation to my PJ? Would this be ok to do?


Athanasios


I was going to recommend that you cascade some balanced units for your PJ's, being that you are using the main transformer as isolation you can plug anything into the resulting power at your outlets, another isolation or balanced or power conditioner or etc.

I made my own balanced transformer rig for my NEC 1352LC and all video components that connect to it and my image noise and black levels improved very nicely on the 1352LC, I have some nasty power though out in the sticks, brownouts, complete drops, plenty of noise Thumbs Down

I have the following power setup chain, all DIY:

dedicated sub panel for HT with 2 x 20-amp circuits> shielded power line to outlets> 4 hospital green dot receptacles with capacitors > 2 APC voltage stabilizers > 2 UPS units with filtering/surge and 1 hour battery > separate balanced transformers for audio, video and CRT > custom made power conditioner > shielded power cables feeding all gear and all in between points in the chain

the results are worth every penny and fun as heck to put together, you are putting all this money into this stuff I would strongly recommend 2 APC UPS units one for each PJ, they have voltage stabilization, long battery backup, surge and further conditioning, check ebay for some big ass ones for about 100$ each

-Gary
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1 - Then you are AOK.

3 - No, the numbers used are nominal. Leave it as I stated.

4 - You can do this anyway that is easy for you,as long as both sides are "electrically" one. A jumper from one side to the other might be easiest.

5 - Correct - as you can see, this just alters the turns ratio.

8 - They need to be "one" as stated in #4 above.

13 - Confirmed!


Quote:
So now I can now add more breakers to the box, maybe change out the 20 amp ones to 10 amps each to get the 60 equivalent from my main breaker. right?


Yes - you can add as many circuits as you can fit in the panel, but do not change the size of the breakers. The breaker is sized solely by the size of the conductors it serves. A 20amp needs a #12 conductor, and a 15amp can use a #14. You can oversize the conductor, but not the breaker. Just use 20amp and #12 and you will have no problems.

Bob
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Athanasios - I'm dying of curiosity - Have you wired this up yet, and if so, how did it turn out?

Bob
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I finally lifted that heavy Son of a B%^ch just the other day. Maybe this weekend I'll get to wiring it up. I need a couple days recovery from the move to the shelf!!!

I knew it was heavy but lifting it up to a shelf that is about 6 feet up was not fun, Pulleys and ladder rungs used as resting points on its way up was a challenge. it was only me and my 63 year old buddy. But its up there waiting to be wired up.

Athanasios

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent - Please do keep us posted on how it goes!

Bob
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hooked it all up !!!!! Working fine, the transformer hums but its in another room so no big deal.

The audio hum went down and so did the video wiggle but its still there only not as bad, its about the same as when i had the chasis to ground, but without a ground now. I still need to remove the monster cable power conditioner and see if that helps as you said it might cause some leakage current . Also my cables in the cabinet are a scrambled mess and I should straighten those out. But I love doing this sort of thing so for me I learned something. Bob would it be wise to
ground the sattelite splitter to the transoformer ground or just leave it where it is above my main panel box, even though I know that its not the Sat causing the hum/squigglies(its the LG Blu Ray Players HDMI).

You were right about 60 volts being measured to ground with my digital meter, but between the hots of the breakers i do get a very small current of 0.005 volts? why is this? Could it be the Digital meter?

Nashou

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Working fine, the transformer hums but its in another room so no big deal.
Quote:


This is to be expected as the iron core is laminated.


Quote:
its about the same as when i had the chasis to ground, but without a ground now.


Which chassis are you talking about? You should still "ground" things as usual. The system ground is still the same as the rest of your house, it is just that the hot and neutral are isolated.


Quote:
I still need to remove the monster cable power conditioner


Absolutely!


Quote:
Bob would it be wise to
ground the sattelite splitter to the transoformer ground or just leave it where it is above my main panel box


It's fine where it is - remember, it is the same ground.


Quote:
but between the hots of the breakers i do get a very small current of 0.005 volts? why is this? Could it be the Digital meter?


Two causes:
1- The meter (.005 is pretty small)
2 - The only way the voltages would be identical is if the currents on the two circuits were identical. Anytime there is current flow, there is voltage drop.
Also, voltage is not current and this has no relation to leakage current.

At this point, you should begin chasing down any remaining hums in the normal fashion, but it is no longer coming from your power distribution.

There is a clever little device that is used to measure the potential for leakage current in isolated power systems called a "line isolation monitor". It can be permanently installed on your distribution system, and it allows you to monitor potential leakage current in every device plugged into your distribution system. It is used in healthcare to determine a failing piece of equipment. They cost probably about $1K new, but on e-bay would probably never be bid on as very few people would even know what it is. I'll save a thingy on e-bay in case one ever appears.

Let me know how the removal of your conditioner etc. effects things.

Thanks,
Bob
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob , when I use a plug tester it shows no ground? Is this normal now that I have it on an Isolation Xfrmr?

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Bob , when I use a plug tester it shows no ground? Is this normal now that I have it on an Isolation Xfrmr?


Yes - Your neutral and hot are now isolated from ground just as though it was a battery out in space. You have the safety advantage still having a ground, but you no longer have a path that can create groundloops or shock hazards.

Remember when you tested voltage from hot to ground? You got an extraneous voltage only because of the extremely high input impedance of your meter, Did you ever check it with a cheaper analog voltmeter.

If you have the goobers, hold on to ground with one hand and touch the hot lead somewhere. You won't feel a thing!

Bob[/quote]
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rabies_70



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA

TV/Projector: Sony G70Q


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boilermaker wrote:
Quote:


If you have the goobers, hold on to ground with one hand and touch the hot lead somewhere. You won't feel a thing!

Bob

Twisted Evil Do it.

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Ray


I am an iconoclast
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cant i hook up a small light bulb or something? I have no goobers I take it !
I bought an analog meter but i think i blew a fuse in it already, it had AC voltage settings like 10,50,250,500, at 250 it showed 60 volts before i blew it spinnng the dial around while it was in the socket and ground. Doh !

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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rabies_70



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 1189
Location: Carlsbad, CA

TV/Projector: Sony G70Q


PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, no lightbulbs allowed. Twisted Evil You got the goobers. Thumbs Up Do it In the name of HT science. For your fellow man
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Ray


I am an iconoclast
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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Cant i hook up a small light bulb or something?


Yes - But you won't see anything!

Quote:
You got the goobers.


I agree - Go for it Athanasios!!!


PS = BTW - If the light bulb lights up at all - You wired up something wrong.
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob I never got around to letting you know about removing the Monster HTS3500 from the system, you were right the hum went down even more. I love this isolation transformer! Any one who plans on adding a separate Panel box to your Theater add a nice big Isolation transformer between it and the main panel box as described in this thread .
It really does make a difference, I have always had this slight hum that was amplified when the volume went up now i just have the slightest hum when I put my ear up to the speaker, at any volume its the same, its the inherent characteristic of Adcom Preamps I heard. I only now Have to run a ground Wire from my satellite Splitter box for Dish Network to the new sub panel. If i have it connected to it original location in the main panel box i get huge huge buzz in the speakers. when i disconnect the ground it goes away. I have it like this for now but don't trust it with possible lighting strike so i need to run a ground wire to the Sub panel so all ground potentials are equal.

Once Again thanks for your Help. I may condense this all into a description-al thread on how to add one to your system. I highly recommend t to everyone instead of those filtered power conditioners.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Ohmess



Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 242
Location: Vienna, VA


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can this be accomplished without a separate panel box?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ohmess wrote:
How can this be accomplished without a separate panel box?


You could hook up one to an outlet and then have it connected to a simple power strip. But that way i do not think is as effective since your power strip might have to have very thick wires for all the amps your equipment will draw, if you have a system like mine with over 15 pieces it can add up. And these things do have an audible hum and get hot so having it in a separate room is more desirable.


Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Once Again thanks for your Help.


Athanasios - I enjoyed walking you through the process and especially glad that you are pleased with the results. As you can see, normal filtering cannot compare at any price.

Quote:
How can this be accomplished without a separate panel box?


You certainly can. Since the output for this particular transformer was set for 120 volt output, you can just string a bunch of outlets on a power cord to serve your equipment. I would suggest using rather large (#8 Ga.) power cord so that you don't experience much voltage drop if you have a substantial load.

If, however, you wish to feed wall mounted outlets as did Athanasios, you are subject to the NEC (National Electric Code). The code will recognize these outlets as under their jurisdiction from a separately derived source and therefore must comply with existing codes. While it has been some time since I dealt with the NEC, I would assume that this means you must protect each circuit feeding 20 amp outlets with no more than a 20 amp breaker. This almost dictates a subpanel which can be very inexpensive.

Bob
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Ohmess



Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 242
Location: Vienna, VA


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Ohmess wrote:
How can this be accomplished without a separate panel box?


You could hook up one to an outlet and then have it connected to a simple power strip. But that way i do not think is as effective since your power strip might have to have very thick wires for all the amps your equipment will draw, if you have a system like mine with over 15 pieces it can add up. And these things do have an audible hum and get hot so having it in a separate room is more desirable.


Athanasios


You have more equipment than I do; I've managed to run my theater with only eight pieces of equipment. My sub is plugged in separately on another circuit.

What about the use of a medical isolation transformer? Too small?

And, how does power conditioning fit into the picture, if at all, once you do an isolated circuit?
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you should add up the wattage used and go from there so say your using 500 watts at least a 750 watt output Iso is needed i would think. It is best tho to figure out your amps being used as a more precise measurement . I have a 5KV unit with 41 amps total which is more than enough, i think a 10- 15 amp unit would be ok for your system, depends on the power of your amps, the marquee will use about 650 watts on the safe side actual use might be less. I bought one of those medical units 11.5 amp output and plan to use it for my PJ's in the blend. in a cascade set up.

And do not use the power conditioner, you wont need it the MOV's in them can actually add noise to the systems power, I confirmed it with my Scope, the wave form was not as smooth with it in the system. Also when looking for a Medical ISO look for one with no conditioning some have them, you just need isolation.
Right Bob?


Oh and also, put that sub on the same circuit!!!! if you have to pull the wire from your panel box and make a plug to go into the Iso Xfrmer power strip you use do it.

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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Boilermaker



Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 527



PostLink    Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2008 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Right Bob?


Absolutely! And yes - make sure you put your sub on this circuit.

Medical isolation transformers are identical to other isolation transformers. I am using one that came from a renovated hospital that I picked up for $30 or so. It is 5KVA. If you buy one intended for hospital use, be careful of the primary side voltage selections available. Most hospitals utilize a 208Volt three phase distribution system (for other reasons) and therefore the isolation transformers have a 208 volt rating instead of 220-240. Mine is a 208 volt unit. If you select one with a 208volt primary, then you will need to add a simple "buck/boost" transformer to change it to 240 volts, otherwise you would have barely over 100 volts on the secondary. Buck/boost transformers are cheap and very small.

If you, for some reason, feel obligated to use some power conditioning, just make sure it is used on the primary side of the isolation transformer.

Bob
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