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So, they're banning incandescent bulbs in the US...
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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10261



PostLink    Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Still, I do not think that is a very bright idea. Very Happy

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unkyjoesa



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 84
Location: Marion TX


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The GVMT can take those CFL's and shove them right up thier fat overpaid asses!

I tried them in the Kitchen, BIG MISTAKE, although I did loose 70+ lbs becuase everything I cooked had a green tint Embarassed

I am more concerned with Bovine Flatulence.

You know how much CO2 all of human activity contributes to the planet wide levels of CO2? Total, all the power plants, cars etc. 3%. The rest comes from 2 main causes, Volcanoes, and rotting plant-animal matter.

Global Warming "caused by humans is bull****!" Al Gore is not a prophet, he is an idiot who consumes more KWH of electricity than 20 average US homes for his 20 room mansion.

In his defense he does buy carbon credits to ease his guilt "Of course he owns that company Razz "

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed on vacation recently that many people have gone with the sh*tty CFL's. I CAN NOT stnd them. THey flicker like crazy and the light comming off them makes me want to squint my eyes. I hate them with the passion of a CRT puritan.
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emdawgz1



Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I bought a set from Lowes. They were on Sale. I love them. Cool to the touch, nice yellow glow. No flicker, no problems.

I think if you are getting flicker you are using the old style.

Take a look @ this http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=cfls.pr_cfls

use the choose a light guide.

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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

emdawgz1 wrote:
I bought a set from Lowes. They were on Sale. I love them. Cool to the touch, nice yellow glow. No flicker, no problems.

I think if you are getting flicker you are using the old style.

Take a look @ this http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=cfls.pr_cfls

use the choose a light guide.


Nope for me ALL florecents flicker. Doesn't matter who makes them. I can see them flicker.

A friend of mine said the same thing the new ones are better blech!

CFL=the DLP of the home lighting world.

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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Location: Fort Collins, CO


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see how you could see CFLs flicker, AR. They run in a kHz region, 20-100 kHz from what I can find. No human can see that. If you saw one that flickered, it was defective.

As for colors, there are different colors of CFLs. At my local Home Depot they have a display of 3 colors of CFL next to a standard 60W incandescent. Two of the bulbs are much "cooler" (higher color temp, including one at about 6500K), but one of them matches about precisely. I don't think you could tell the difference between the two, shining on other objects, with anything short of a colorimeter.

unkyjoesa wrote:
You know how much CO2 all of human activity contributes to the planet wide levels of CO2? Total, all the power plants, cars etc. 3%. The rest comes from 2 main causes, Volcanoes, and rotting plant-animal matter.

According to an article in the New Scientist, the major sources of CO2 are: 220 gigatonnes/yr from rotting plant/animal matter, 220 Gt/yr from plant respiration, 330 Gt/yr from the ocean, and roughly 33 Gt/yr from humans. Volcanic eruptions contribute about 1/100th as much as humans.

So looking at this on the surface, humans contribute only 33 / (220+220+330+33) = 4.1% of all CO2 emissions. Something so small must be inconsequential, yes?

Well, maybe. CO2 levels have been in pretty good balance for millennia. The Vostok ice cores show CO2 levels between 180 and 300 ppm for the last 500,000 years. But in the last few centuries, CO2 levels have risen sharply and steadily to 380 ppm -- higher than they've been in at least half a million years.

Why? It appears the earth's biosystems are balanced pretty well. Natural systems are capable of absorbing all of the CO2 generated by other natural systems -- and a little bit more. But not much more. The data seems to indicate that about 40% of the current human CO2 is absorbed and handled, just like the CO2 from other sources, BUT that seems to be all the natural systems can handle. The other 60% of human CO2 is adding to atmospheric levels.

So even though the human-generated CO2 is small compared to natural sources, it maybe just enough to tip us over into an accelerating increase of atmospheric CO2. And that's a big problem.

Bovine flatulence is a big problem too, since methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2. But guess what? Nearly all cow farts are human-caused too! We wouldn't have all these cows if humans weren't raising them for beef.
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Zebu Fellenz



Joined: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 2567



PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AnalogRocks wrote:


Nope for me ALL florecents flicker. Doesn't matter who makes them. I can see them flicker.

A friend of mine said the same thing the new ones are better blech!

CFL=the DLP of the home lighting world.


AR,

Mebbe you can run the flourescent TUBES at 72hz. to reduce the flicker Mr. Green

I don't like the CFL's because they haven't held up any better than incandescents for me, but the longer tubes work fine for me, I use 12 T8 4' tubes in my HT and we used many T8 8' lights in the shops.
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unkyjoesa



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 84
Location: Marion TX


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garyfritz,

Ah yes, but the key is this, temperature increases FIRST before CO2 does, none of the so-called scientists have explained why this is the case, they simply ignore it.

Al Gore claims it is the other way around in his infomercial. But the fact remains, temp goes up first, then CO2, not the other way around.

This year at the North Pole, the claims of the sea ice dissapearing never came to pass, in fact there is more sea ice in the North Pole this year than in the last 50.

Also keep in mind the sun has been behaving a little erraticly this year, the sunspots that were supposed to appear in January were a no show. Also if you correlate the atmo temp increase with solar output over the last 100k years there is a direct correlation.

Keep in mind in 1974 Time magazine quoted scientists that we were entering a new ice age. Are you wearing your sweaters and have the heat on in the house right now, are there several feet of snow and ice covering your local town?

I am all for conservation, we all waste way to much, I love the folks with a bottle of water in one hand and a starbucks in the other, bitching at the guy driving the Hummer and wasting so much gas!

Bottle water if you bought enough of these to fill a gallon, the cost would be $16
Starbucks by the gallon $600

And we are bitching about high gas prices, feel sorry for Europe, they have had them for years, we just caught up!

Excuse me while I go start my hummer and look for a Prius to gobble up Laughing

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unkyjoesa



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more thing,

UK Schools require that anything taught as scientific proof must have the science to back it up, go figure?

Here is what they found:

The film claims that melting snows on Mount Kilimanjaro evidence global warming. The Government's expert was forced to concede that this is not correct.

The film suggests that evidence from ice cores proves that rising CO2 causes temperature increases over 650,000 years. The Court found that the film was misleading: over that period the rises in CO2 lagged behind the temperature rises by 800-2000 years.

The film uses emotive images of Hurricane Katrina and suggests that this has been caused by global warming. The Government's expert had to accept that it was "not possible" to attribute one-off events to global warming.

The film shows the drying up of Lake Chad and claims that this was caused by global warming. The Government's expert had to accept that this was not the case.

The film claims that a study showed that polar bears had drowned due to disappearing arctic ice. It turned out that Mr Gore had misread the study: in fact four polar bears drowned and this was because of a particularly violent storm.

The film threatens that global warming could stop the Gulf Stream throwing Europe into an ice age: the Claimant's evidence was that this was a scientific impossibility.

The film blames global warming for species losses including coral reef bleaching. The Government could not find any evidence to support this claim.

The film suggests that the Greenland ice covering could melt causing sea levels to rise dangerously. The evidence is that Greenland will not melt for millennia.

The film suggests that the Antarctic ice covering is melting, the evidence was that it is in fact increasing.

The film suggests that sea levels could rise by 7m causing the displacement of millions of people. In fact the evidence is that sea levels are expected to rise by about 40cm over the next hundred years and that there is no such threat of massive migration.

The film claims that rising sea levels has caused the evacuation of certain Pacific islands to New Zealand. The Government are unable to substantiate this and the Court observed that this appears to be a false claim.

All and I mean ALL CFL's are made in China - another good reason not to buy into the CFL debate, China is now one of the largest producers of CO2, and not part of the damnable Kyoto accord.

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unkyjoesa wrote:
Ah yes, but the key is this, temperature increases FIRST before CO2 does, none of the so-called scientists have explained why this is the case, they simply ignore it.

Source, please? I've seen plenty of people claim this, but I've never seen any scientific sources confirm it.

Quote:
This year at the North Pole, the claims of the sea ice dissapearing never came to pass, in fact there is more sea ice in the North Pole this year than in the last 50.

Where did you get this nonsense!? NASA says the Arctic ice pack is currently 20% less than the average level it's been at since satellites started flying over the pole in 1978. It's currently at the lowest level recorded in that period. An article in the Telegraph reports that the North pole has "become an island" for the first time in human history, meaning the ice has receded away from all surrounding land masses. (Obviously that's hyperbole, since there was no scientific record of Arctic ice prior to 100-150yrs ago, but it's unprecedented since anybody has been exploring the Arctic.) Google "arctic ice shipping lanes" and you'll find hundreds of articles about the newly-navigable Arctic. Nobody believable says there's "more sea ice" than there used to be.

Quote:
Keep in mind in 1974 Time magazine quoted scientists that we were entering a new ice age.

Right, so obviously everything every scientist ever says is wrong. Come ON.

As for your list of UK court-ordered interpretations: Very few people would say Gore's movie is the gospel -- probably not even Gore. There were definitely errors and exaggerations in it. However I do not accept the authority of some "expert" retained by a UK court over the evidence gathered by the scientific community at large. The fact that they conclude something is false because their ""expert"" couldn't find evidence of it is laughable at best. I especially like this one:
Quote:
The film claims that rising sea levels has caused the evacuation of certain Pacific islands to New Zealand. The Government are unable to substantiate this and the Court observed that this appears to be a false claim.

A single Google search ("pacific island flood evacuate") shows how reliable this ""expert"" is:

http://www.straight.com/article/south-pacific-islands-slip-beneath-the-waves

Sample quote: "Over recent decades, the remote Pacific nation--a series of nine low-lying coral atolls--has been beset by frequent floods, cyclones, and rising sea levels. Tuvalu's 10,500 inhabitants have already begun the dreaded process of evacuating to New Zealand, which has agreed to accept 75 Tuvaluans per year as environmental refugees." Another search, including "tuvalu" in the search string, turns up hundreds of articles confirming it.

If this ""expert"" can't even verify something that is reported in the press, why should I accept his opinion on anything else!?
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unkyjoesa



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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Location: Marion TX


PostLink    Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I encourage you to read this article NIPCC report, it pretty much says it all.

http://heartland.temp.siteexecutive.com/pdf/22835.pdf


Or This report by Nasa:

By CLAYTON SANDELL and BILL BLAKEMORE
May 31, 2007

NASA administrator Michael Griffin is drawing the ire of his agency's preeminent climate scientists after apparently downplaying the need to combat global warming.

In an interview broadcast this morning on National Public Radio's "Morning Edition" program, Griffin was asked by NPR's Steve Inskeep whether he is concerned about global warming.

"I have no doubt that a trend of global warming exists," Griffin told Inskeep. "I am not sure that it is fair to say that it is a problem we must wrestle with."

"To assume that it is a problem is to assume that the state of Earth's climate today is the optimal climate, the best climate that we could have or ever have had and that we need to take steps to make sure that it doesn't change," Griffin said. "I guess I would ask which human beings where and when are to be accorded the privilege of deciding that this particular climate that we have right here today, right now is the best climate for all other human beings. I think that's a rather arrogant position for people to take."

Griffin's comments immediately drew stunned reaction from James Hansen, NASA's top climate scientist at the Goddard Institute for Space Studies in New York.

"It's an incredibly arrogant and ignorant statement," Hansen told ABC News. "It indicates a complete ignorance of understanding the implications of climate change."

Hansen believes Griffin's comments fly in the face of well-established scientific knowledge that hundreds of NASA scientists have contributed to.

"It's unbelievable," said Hansen. "I thought he had been misquoted. It's so unbelievable."

News media inquiries to NASA headquarters about Griffin's comments prompted the space agency to make the unusual move of issuing a news release late Wednesday night.

"NASA is the world's preeminent organization in the study of Earth and the conditions that contribute to climate change and global warming," Griffin said in a statement. "The agency is responsible for collecting data that is used by the science community and policy makers as part of an ongoing discussion regarding our planet's evolving systems. It is NASA's responsibility to collect, analyze and release information. It is not NASA's mission to make policy regarding possible climate change mitigation strategies. As I stated in the NPR interview, we are proud of our role and I believe we do it well."

Hansen, featured prominently in Al Gore's global warming documentary, "An Inconvenient Truth," has been warning of the potential dangers of climate change since the 1980s.

In late 2005, he accused NASA of trying to improperly censor him after he warned that Earth's climate might be approaching a dangerous "tipping point."

The agency later fired a public affairs employee, a political appointee of the Bush administration, over the incident.

Last year, many NASA scientists were upset when reports surfaced that the agency had quietly deleted the phrase "to understand and protect our home planet" from the NASA mission statement. The scientists believe research on issues like climate change will suffer as NASA shifts priorities toward exploration missions to the moon and Mars.

"Earth has always been central to NASA's science," Hansen said.

Or this article on the supposed sea ice melt:

http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/arctic-ice-extent-discrepancy-nsidc-versus-cryosphere-today/
[url]

[/url]

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garyfritz



Joined: 08 Apr 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

unkyjoesa wrote:
I encourage you to read this article NIPCC report, it pretty much says it all.
http://heartland.temp.siteexecutive.com/pdf/22835.pdf

The Heartland Institute has documented funding from and ties to Exxon Mobil, the tobacco industry, and other corporate interests. It is a "corporate think-tank" with an agenda, not a scientific organization. The NIPCC is a collection of scientists around the world who have gathered to promote their views which, surprise, say global warming is a fairy tale. They're entitled to their opinions but they're a small minority in the scientific world.

Quote:
Or This report by Nasa:
NASA administrator Michael Griffin is drawing the ire of his agency's preeminent climate scientists after apparently downplaying the need to combat global warming.

That's not a "report by Nasa." That's an article about an administrator spouting off about something he knows nothing about. The same article quotes an actual NASA scientist -- NASA's "top climate scientist" -- who says the guy is blowing smoke.

Quote:
Or this article on the supposed sea ice melt:
http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/08/15/arctic-ice-extent-discrepancy-nsidc-versus-cryosphere-today/

Great link! Did you notice the "Note of Correction" at the bottom of that article? The author of the original Register article (who said the ice wasn't melting like it was supposed to) posted a retraction because of a flawed analysis of map data. His final comment was: "Arctic ice is indeed melting nearly as fast as last year, and this is indeed troubling."

Seems to me your last two links support my argument.... Smile
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unkyjoesa



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then we have to agree to disagree.

Lets come back to this in 5 years when the North Pole has finally melted, NY City is under water, and my front yard is oceanfront property.

I really bought into the Global Warming myth myself, but learned a long time ago to take so called "peer reviewed scientific evidence" with a grain of salt.

I am all for reducing polution, and reduction of fossil fuel use, but to say it is the direct cause of Global Warming and that all of us should change our lifestyle is a little far fetched.

This plannet has been here for 4.5 billion years, this period of warming is not even the blink of an eye.

I will do my part to reduce my "CARBON FOOTPRINT" however I will not be changing my lifestyle because some eggheads are claiming the sky is falling. I still remember peer reveiwed articles in the 70's showed the planet was cooling, and they are still no better at predicting the weather then they were 50 years ago, still no better than 3 days long term.

Let us end this debate and watch the planet slowly cook together in brotherhood Thumbs Up

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WanMan



Joined: 19 Mar 2006
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PostLink    Posted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You carbon footprint is meaningless when the billions of others will mock you with glee.
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CFL's still suck donkey Mr. Green
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WanMan



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PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And LED still is too expensive. MR16 LEDs start around $25/unit.
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garyfritz



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PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also discovered LED lights don't like dimmer circuits. fzzzzt Sad
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AnalogRocks
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PostLink    Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have most of my lights on dimmers. I seldome run flat out with any of them. I like dimming things at night just before I goto bed. Makes me sleepy.
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unkyjoesa



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PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Analog,

It also extends the life of your Incandecent light bulbs Smile Another Plus!

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ecrabb
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PostLink    Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

unkyjoesa wrote:
It also extends the life of your Incandecent light bulbs Smile Another Plus!

That's no exaggeration! I have 11 recessed reflector bulbs in the exterior soffit in my house. They're on an X-10 automated dimmer so they run at less than half brightness and have a very slow fade-up start feature. I have replaced exactly one of those bulbs in the nearly 4 years that have passed since we built the house, and that one was during the first year. I think it was defective.

I also have 15 of the same bulbs in the breezeway, kitchen and living room. None are on dimmers (a couple actually are , now), yet I've already replaced two in the kitchen and two in the living room - for a total of four bulbs replaced.

The dimmer (and especially the soft-start) really add life-span to the bulbs. I've read that the heat shock when the filament first has power applied is by far the biggest contributer to early failure.

The outside bulbs are even subjected to the extreme hot/cold, yet they seem to be lasting much longer with the soft-start feature.

SC
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