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Marquee Modifications and Performance Enhancement
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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the schematics for the decupoling caps dont show the orientation to each chip its just a general idea of where that rail goes to. on the actual schematics where the chips are, they do not have the decoupling caps, thats what the other set of schematics is for , those caps, and its just a general guide to how those caps are fed from the power supply rails.

yes use the continuity check as its the best way. I was only stateing that you should take care and check again and again from both the positive and negative and then also double check by crossing (neg to pos no beep, pos to neg no beep) if it beeps after a the cross check then make sure your testing from the correct feed CAP . After a while you'll get it, i suggest for now you change maybe two caps at a time and test the board in the PJ if it pops you only have to look for one or two caps, and it will help you learn. Wink
Thats how I did it !

nashou

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CLM Cap Pics link here:

CLM 10 meg pic file

Athanasios

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"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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PaulB



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 359
Location: Bonnie (but rainy) Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you are saying Athanasios, I'd picked up that the continuity check wasn't reliable but clearly it is - my mistake. I can only speak for myself obviously but your explanations above are actually making more sense to me know, something clicked and I GET IT, I ACTUALLY GET IT Thumbs Up

Thank you for posting the CLM pics, I'm sorry that things didn't quite click before I asked you to take them but they are most useful as I will now cross-check my work against your own each time I do a few caps (once I get round to it - I'm holding off 'til the pj gets fully set up).

Again thanks for your excellent thread and assistance Athanasios, you're a hero mate, a flipping hero!

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PaulB



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 359
Location: Bonnie (but rainy) Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
CLM Cap Pics link here:

CLM 10 meg pic file

Athanasios


Perfect Thumbs Up

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Paul
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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad to help Paul, Hope to meet you if i make it to London this october, I might try to meet andy maybe you could come down and we can have a mini GB meet.

Athanasios

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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PaulB



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 359
Location: Bonnie (but rainy) Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm certainly owe yourself and Andy a drink or two thats for sure!

Looks like I'm off to sunny Spain for a few weeks in October so now very unlikely I can make it. I must admit I'd sort of mentally pencilled it in as flights to London from my neck of the woods are realtively cheap but looks like a no-go for me I'm afraid.

Next time hopefully, and I'll treat you to some haggis and neeps! Lovely stuff Shocked

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey maybe andres will let you see his blended marquees in spain, i think he's in barcelona. Maybe I'll head that way too make it a small CRT tour.

Athanasios

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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antorsae



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 297



PostLink    Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am on the beach Smile
Not in Barcelona, though....
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Arno P



Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did the first neck-board Wink


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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice work Arno ! Dont forget to get some of those 100pf silver mica caps for putting on C21,C46,And C2(also replace with a film cap of same value, like Wima) there may be some more changes comming to the neck board but i need some time to get back to them, just a few more cap change outs and maybe some inductors.

Athanasios

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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PaulB



Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 359
Location: Bonnie (but rainy) Scotland


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done Arno, welcome to the wonderful world of marquee modding!

This is probably more for Athanasios, I see you have caps across some of the chips in there - did I miss these somewhere, can't recall seeing them in the mod thread - worthwhile mod and if so, what are they?

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi Paul, McPherve mentions putting caps across the power supply pins on all the op amps in the marquee in the archives on AVS, he states "in case there doing something they not supose to" I have them on some and not on others(forgot) but i do not think they do much since the other decoupling caps have been doen on the supply rails, but you can use either 100nf(.1uf) or 100pf caps. i used the .1uf diped tants positive side to positive pin of chip, but i think film or ceramics might be better.

Athanasios

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Arno P



Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulB wrote:
Well done Arno, welcome to the wonderful world of marquee modding!

This is probably more for Athanasios, I see you have caps across some of the chips in there - did I miss these somewhere, can't recall seeing them in the mod thread - worthwhile mod and if so, what are they?


Paul, the decoupling of opamps is one of the most common things to do...(if any designer forgets them in a high bandwidth circuit...he should be kicked Smile Wink )....they are standard 100nF foil caps....just have to be fast enough for spikes/HF....and above all...as close as possible to the opamp supply pins (and on top of it is as close as it gets)....on the board adds tracks in the paths which are basically coils (approx. 1nH/mm) causing a degrade of the decoupling function of the capacitor..

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right you are Arno, So you think the 100pf are to small a value or are for too high a frequency.

Athanasios

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Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

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Arno P



Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Right you are Arno, So you think the 100pf are to small a value or are for too high a frequency.

Athanasios


Yes, most circuitboards (digital) have 22..47 or 100nF

100pF reminds me more of taming feedbackloops of opamps (or matching phono-input capacitances)

100nF in parallel with an electrolyt capacitor....would make sense if the bigger C is no larger than 10x that value (so I recall from someone who measured this for use in loudspeaker filters).

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, McPherve actually used the large value cap,a 100nf cap and the 100pf on the supply rails. So this aproach mayb asl used on the pins too? or the 100nf would be enough and the rest is over kill since the rails have this already?


Nashou

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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Arno P



Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
Right, McPherve actually used the large value cap,a 100nf cap and the 100pf on the supply rails. So this aproach mayb asl used on the pins too? or the 100nf would be enough and the rest is over kill since the rails have this already?


Nashou


The rails should be ok, only the local IC decoupling is an improvement to compensate when the buffering (capacitors) that are further away from it see a too long path when a spike/glitch/edge occurs....that's when the small locals catch up..

Since the opamps got their power supply rejection ratio I wouldn't mind to much about what needs to be done on the rails...but...for the transistors "touching" the bare suplly voltage there could only be a problem when there's a differential mode disturbance on the voltage rail (one side) since the common mode disturbances (+85V and -85V suffer the same voltage dips etc) should be covered by the balanced design (and the relatively high voltage on which small surges will have less influence)
Looks more as a regular power-amp design (with all respect for the HF handling capabilities they had to take care of) and in such a design you will see very stable ps filtering in the front stages and basic stabilisation in the power section.

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Arno P



Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the way...be careful with adding series inductors in the power lines....if the value is small it will help the filtering since it is a second order now together with the C .
BUT...this approach although very nice for tube amplifiers and HF circuits..can have a secondary negative effect of oscillation between the C and the L....trigger such LC circuit it could start to bounc quite a time

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Nashou66



Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 16170
Location: West Seneca NY


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So as long as the inductor has a very very low DCR it should be ok?

Athanasios

_________________
Don't blame your underwear for your crooked ass~ unknown Greek philosopher


"Republicans believe every day is the Fourth of July, but the Democrats believe every day is April 15." --- President Reagan

One Smart Dog!!!

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Arno P



Joined: 01 Jan 2007
Posts: 282
Location: The Netherlands


PostLink    Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nashou66 wrote:
So as long as the inductor has a very very low DCR it should be ok?

Athanasios


Nope...

If it would be an "ideal" inductor of zero ohms....the oscillation is best.....
In case it does have a DCR....there is another disadvantage of the voltage drop

If oscillation is no issue....calculate the f3 of the filtering (L/C) and base the selection of the inductor on that


And another nice thing that could happen.....EM-signal injection (of any HF source around) on a coil in an antenna function

(My choice....leave the inductors out of it and keep the original design)

F = 1/(2*PI()*SQRT(L*C))

http://circuitcalculator.com/lcfilter.htm

http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/LC_Oscillator

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