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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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 Link Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Spanky Ham wrote: | ecrabb,
Do you always have to write a book for every post?  |
I don't write a book for every post. But, if you don't like the lengthier posts, feel free to skip over them. I won't mind.
SC
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | SC, you didn't read my post. Phil is essentially right (happy Phil?  )
To make a cheap set, they do a "pseudo-interlacing". The panel is 1080p. But it is not updated progressively. To update progressively, EACH line is updated EACH duty cycle. |
I read your post and I knew exactly what you're talking about. I'm just surprised that they're able to use a phosphor with a long enough persistence that combing isn't obvious and obnoxious, without having a smeared, blurry motion - especially at a time when all the LCD manufacturers are pushing their 120hz refresh capability to REDUCE motion smearing.
Ever watch a 1080i MPEG file on a direct-view CRT monitor when the monitor is running a progressive refresh? The combing is horrible. Practically unwatchable. Obviously, that's a much shorter-persistence phosphor and it's being driven at much lower level, but still... That's another thing. If they're driving the phosphor harder for better persistence to mask the interlacing, then one could assume the life-span will be much reduced over another panel that's not doing the same thing. You think?
You guys have my interest piqued. I'm going to have to swing by a store now and take a look and see what this set looks like.
SC
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Spanky Ham
Joined: 22 Mar 2006
Posts: 5643
Location: Comedy Central
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Link Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Eric, Wow! They are cheap. Like I said though, I really don't want one. Maybe if I demoed one I'd feel different about it, but at this point I'm tired of looking.
This thread had me doubting my purchase a little. I don't pick up the Hitachi until Thursday, so I'm sure I could back out of the deal if I wanted to. So I did more research today. I'm ok with what I chose. For the price, I didn't do bad.
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greg_mitch
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 5321
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| Link Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | Now, I'm not ragging on you Phil (cause your my buddy), but coming from the G70, I'm surprised that you were willing to go with one of the worst flat panel images available! That is quite a big step. You could have spent a little more and got a much better image! |
Hopefully you have seen the TV before otherwise this might be the funniest statement ever.
I have seen the TV and it doesn't look any worse than the other 40 plasmas sitting around it. I am pretty sure it was called something ALiS...like alternate lighting surface something or other.
Here it is...
| Quote: | | ALiS - ALiS (alternate lighting of surfaces) technology developed by Fujitsu/Hitachi for plasma panel displays. On a conventional plasma TV, all pixels are illuminated at all times. With an ALiS plasma panel, alternate rows of pixels are illuminated so that half the panel's pixels are illuminated at any moment, somewhat similarly to interlaced scanning on a CRT-type TV. This allows higher native resolution than designs with discrete pixels (typically 1,024x1,024 versus 1,024x768 for 42-inch plasmas), but ALiS has historically suffered in other areas, including black-level performance. |
But I guess my black level performance requirements for a living TV set are pretty lax.
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VideoGrabber
Joined: 09 Apr 2006
Posts: 933
Location: Michigan
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Dave commented:
> I'm surprised that you were willing to go with one of the worst flat panel images available! <
Just mildly curious if this evaluation is based on viewing a variety of flat panels, or just the spec sheets, so it must therefore suck.
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- Tim
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| VideoGrabber wrote: | Dave commented:
> I'm surprised that you were willing to go with one of the worst flat panel images available! <
Just mildly curious if this evaluation is based on viewing a variety of flat panels, or just the spec sheets, so it must therefore suck. |
I've seen the Pioneer Kuro and a number of Panasonics, Vizios, etc. I've not seen this plasma personally. However, I compare measured specs (no spec sheets) measured by the same person with the same equipment to get relative comparisons. Using this, one can use the knowledge of what image parameters are important: contrast, color accuracy, grayscale accuracy, resolution, etc.
Since the Hitachi's on/off CR, ANSI CR, and MTF are all very bad (relatively speaking), and I've seen plasmas with measured numbers about like its, I don't know what attribute would make it become greater than the sum of its measurements.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | ...I've seen plasmas with measured numbers about like its, I don't know what attribute would make it become greater than the sum of its measurements. |
A dirt-cheap price?
SC
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Well the wife has suggested that the big 9 inch leave the main house and be replaced with a 60 inch (plus or minus) size plasma. So the question is, if money were no object, What is the best one?
The good news is, if I agree to that, I can build a dedicated theater in the basement. 
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| stefuel wrote: | | Well the wife has suggested that the big 9 inch leave the main house and be replaced with a 60 inch (plus or minus) size plasma. So the question is, if money were no object, What is the best one? |
Chip, did you not read the thread?
It is pretty much universally agreed by every reviewer and confirmed by single blind tests that the Pioneer Kuro is BY FAR the best plasma made.
One reviewer's summary of the Kuro:
"Much has been said about Pioneer's new KURO line, but when it comes down to it, the praise is much deserved. They really are that good. They aren't cheap, but if you're looking for the best picture quality in a flat panel, this is it. For that matter, you'd be hard-pressed to get a more addictive image in any TV, regardless of technology."
Going down a notch, the Panasonics are not bad and some others are OK, but you start to get into trade offs so you need to decide which parameters are most important to you.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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HaydnG90
Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 1335
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen the latest 50" KURO at Magnolia in Southlake and it does look impressive compared to the competition. It was hard for me to justify the price premium though, mostly because my critical movie viewing is done on a G90. If the plasma were to be my primary video source I would seriously consider the KURO range.
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ecrabb
Forum Moderator
Joined: 13 Mar 2006
Posts: 15909
Location: Utah
TV/Projector: JVC RS40, Epson 5010
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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The problem I see is that "50-inch plasma" and "critical viewing" are almost mutually exclusive, anymore. Who can sit close enough to any sort of plasma or LCD under 50-60" that they could consider it any sort of "critical viewing"? Seriously, take even a 60" diag plasma. It isn't even 4 feet wide! To get at least the minimum THX-recommended viewing angle, you'll have to be less than eight feet away. To get the recommended 36-degree viewing angle, you'd have to be at 5 feet, 6 inches!!!! So, unless you're talking about a studio or efficiency apartment in the inner city, who's going to use one of these for "critical viewing" - especially when you also have a dedicated theater.
So, given all that, why spend $3000 on a Kuro when you can spend $1500 on something just "decent", when these things almost all go to casual viewing. Football, golf, news, TV shows. Yeah, I'm I really going to notice a few hundred clicks better ANSI contrast watching "Heros" in the living room... with the sunset streaming into the windows or the kitchen lights blaring into the room? No. Take the 1500 bones extra and go to Hawaii or buy a nice new AVR with advanced audio for the dedicated theater - where you do the REAL critical viewing.
Chip... The wife's given you the green light to get a plasma for the living room AND build a dedicated theater? Please tell me you already said "yes" and you're going shopping for a plasma this weekend!!!
SC
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Person99
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
Posts: 4901
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: |
So, given all that, why spend $3000 on a Kuro when you can spend $1500 on something just "decent", when these things almost all go to casual viewing. Football, golf, news, TV shows. Yeah, I'm I really going to notice a few hundred clicks better ANSI contrast watching "Heros" in the living room... with the sunset streaming into the windows or the kitchen lights blaring into the room? No. Take the 1500 bones extra and go to Hawaii or buy a nice new AVR with advanced audio for the dedicated theater - where you do the REAL critical viewing. |
Not everyone has a theater! We do. most don't. Of my friends, less than 30% have dedicated theaters. Heck, if it were not for the couple friends I met through AVS, it would be less than 10% of my friends! In my neighborhood, I know 4 people with theaters (i.e. windowless rooms) in their house that use them as play rooms for the kids! So, even having a room, they don't turn it into a theater.
So, most people are going to watch a non-projection display. Some watching will be golf with the sun streaming in but some will be movies during the evening with the shades drawn. Also, most can watch these closer than the SMPTE max viewing distance (4 times picture height) with everything accept maybe letterboxed movies. So, why not make your main display, if your only display, as good as you can to enjoy movies and such the best you can.
And actually, "Heros" was a bad example, because that is a very good looking well filmed show that does show off good displays.
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Dave
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Person99 wrote: | | stefuel wrote: | | Well the wife has suggested that the big 9 inch leave the main house and be replaced with a 60 inch (plus or minus) size plasma. So the question is, if money were no object, What is the best one? |
Chip, did you not read the thread?
It is pretty much universally agreed by every reviewer and confirmed by single blind tests that the Pioneer Kuro is BY FAR the best plasma made.
One reviewer's summary of the Kuro:
"Much has been said about Pioneer's new KURO line, but when it comes down to it, the praise is much deserved. They really are that good. They aren't cheap, but if you're looking for the best picture quality in a flat panel, this is it. For that matter, you'd be hard-pressed to get a more addictive image in any TV, regardless of technology."
Going down a notch, the Panasonics are not bad and some others are OK, but you start to get into trade offs so you need to decide which parameters are most important to you. |
I did read the thread but somehow missed that quote. Also of concern is service and warrantee. I'll have to look into that along with extended warrantee's before I puke up that kind of cash
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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stefuel
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 3353
Location: Green Harbor MA USA
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| Link Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Chip... The wife's given you the green light to get a plasma for the living room AND build a dedicated theater? Please tell me you already said "yes" and you're going shopping for a plasma this weekend!!!
Are you kidding? Within 45 minutes of the suggestion...
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Chip
A Barco is only a AmPro with training wheels
Card carrying member of the AVS chain gang.
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NateTTU
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 297
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| Link Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:48 am Post subject: |
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I need some advice. I just purchased, a couple of hours ago, a open boxed Pioneer 42'' Kuro plasma from BB. Some problems:
No remote, base isn't even the right one, small scratch on bottom corner of plasma (not screen only border), and I have no idea how many hours are on it. The unit was one of the displays so I imagine it has about a billion hours on it but it still looked pretty good.
I paid $1300 for the set, plus tax of course. Now was this a wise move or a bad one? I have 30 days from now to make up my mind for good. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a perfect new one but the fact is they don't sell them anymore, at least that I can tell. Of course I now I have to decide on keeping this plasma or the NEC XG LC. I'm frankly tired of setting up the pj and don't want to put it up on the new ceiling. However I am moving from a 106'' screen down to a tiny 42''. Like I said I will really have to take my time and make a wise decision but some input will help. Thanks.
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Phil Smith
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
Posts: 7717
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| Link Posted: Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ecrabb wrote: | | Person99 wrote: | | ...I've seen plasmas with measured numbers about like its, I don't know what attribute would make it become greater than the sum of its measurements. |
A dirt-cheap price? |
Thank you Steve! I can't seem to get that point across. For the price, it's a hell of a TV. Good, bright 1080 programming looks spectacular. Better than any $1,250 50" plasma has a right to. Dark programming...well, not so good.
| stefuel wrote: | Well the wife has suggested that the big 9 inch leave the main house and be replaced with a 60 inch (plus or minus) size plasma. So the question is, if money were no object, What is the best one?
The good news is, if I agree to that, I can build a dedicated theater in the basement. |
Apparently Costco bought Pioneer's remaining stock of last year's 60" Kuro model, and supposedly will be selling them soon at a really good price. You might want to hold off to see if that's true.
| ecrabb wrote: | | The problem I see is that "50-inch plasma" and "critical viewing" are almost mutually exclusive, anymore. Who can sit close enough to any sort of plasma or LCD under 50-60" that they could consider it any sort of "critical viewing"? Seriously, take even a 60" diag plasma. It isn't even 4 feet wide! To get at least the minimum THX-recommended viewing angle, you'll have to be less than eight feet away. |
I like to sit 2:1 from the screen. If I can eventually get a 70"-75" flat panel, I'm good. I won't do an HT again. Frankly, I'm enjoying the convenience of a TV again (having only had a PJ for several years), but missing the big screen. A big flat panel will let me enjoy the best of both worlds. It's won't be quite as good as having a 100" plus screen, but it'll be damn close.
| NateTTU wrote: | I need some advice. I just purchased, a couple of hours ago, a open boxed Pioneer 42'' Kuro plasma from BB. Some problems:
No remote, base isn't even the right one, small scratch on bottom corner of plasma (not screen only border), and I have no idea how many hours are on it. The unit was one of the displays so I imagine it has about a billion hours on it but it still looked pretty good.
I paid $1300 for the set, plus tax of course. Now was this a wise move or a bad one? I have 30 days from now to make up my mind for good. I wouldn't mind paying a little more for a perfect new one but the fact is they don't sell them anymore, at least that I can tell. Of course I now I have to decide on keeping this plasma or the NEC XG LC. I'm frankly tired of setting up the pj and don't want to put it up on the new ceiling. However I am moving from a 106'' screen down to a tiny 42''. Like I said I will really have to take my time and make a wise decision but some input will help. Thanks. |
Nate, I read yesterday on AVS that the half life (when it loses half it's brightness) of a plasma is 60K hours. I would think your plasma doesn't have anymore than 10K in the worst of cases, so I wouldn't worry about the hours. Sounds like to me you got a really good deal. I understand your reluctance to hang the XG. As I mentioned, I've grown tired of the HT grind too. If you're enjoying the plasma, I'd stick with it.
Here's the biggest negative about plasmas: They're boring to talk about. I've tried to get into the plasma forum on AVS, but I can't. There's just not that much to discuss. They're not complicated like CRT PJs. Starting out not knowing ANYTHING about them 2 weeks ago, I've pretty much already learned all I want to know. They're just not that interesting. Plus, most of the posters are of the fanboy variety. They're not very informed, even though there's not that much to know. They just like to talk about how wonderful whatever model they own is, or how wonderful the new models are going to be. I don't have much interest in that.
So like Matt, I guess you guys are still stuck with me. 
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WanMan
Joined: 19 Mar 2006
Posts: 10273
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| Link Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I like to sit 2:1 from the screen. If I can eventually get a 70"-75" flat panel, I'm good. I won't do an HT again. Frankly, I'm enjoying the convenience of a TV again (having only had a PJ for several years), but missing the big screen. A big flat panel will let me enjoy the best of both worlds. It's won't be quite as good as having a 100" plus screen, but it'll be damn close. |
2:1 from the screen? Is this screen width? If it is then you better have better than 20/20 vision or you may be wasting your money on 1080P that you cannot resolve otherwise. Marketing works its magic on you, snake oil and all.
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