CurtPalme.com Home Theater Forum

JustGreg · Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:04 pm Post subject: Sony TC-580 reel to reel ills

I was given this beast about 10 years ago for doing some network work for a guy and never even plugged it in until yesterday. Turns out it doesn't work like I was told it did when it was given to me. Either that or it died of boredom and inactivity.

First, I know ZIP about these things other than it has two reels. One to feed, the other to take up. It took me a while to figure out how to thread it...I'm fairly sure it's correct.

When I power it on the VU meters light up, there's the soft hum of a motor turning (which turns out to be a motor to turn a large rubber roller centered in the middle of the play and record heads). When I press Fwd I can hear a solenoid kick in and the light that points to the right goes on, but nothing else happens. There's a large solenoid to the top left of the feed reel that's supposed to activate and pull the heads and that rubber wheel up against the tape, and activate the motors (it has three) but it doesn't do anything.
I pulled the front plastic bezel off to get a look inside and both VU meters plopped out. They have a threaded stud on each corver and a rubber damper on each one, but they're aren't any nuts to secure them to the chassis. I'm not even sure they're supposed to have them. The bezel keeps them fairly secure. The 2 rubber belts for the counter are wilted, weathered and work erratically but that's minor.

Anyway, I cleaned as much as I could with cue tips and isopropyl and managed to get both motors turning by manually depressing a solenoid which in turn tripped a micro switch (without reels on it), but both motors turn in opposite directions.

I also noticed the Stop button doesn't do anything at all when pressed. I can press the Rewind button next to the Fwd button and I hear a solenoid kick but that's all it does. The Fwd light doesn't even go out when the Stop button is pressed.

I don't have any money into this and it's not a big deal but the guy gave me a pile of tapes and I'm curious what's on them. One of them that was on the machine all these years shows some pretty bad cracking in the section that was exposed but after the first foot or so it looks OK.

One cool thing I noticed is that back when it was built, plastic zip ties weren't around so they bundled wires with what looks like black thread.

I'd post some pics but my camera is at a relatives house....forgot it when we were there for Christmas. If there's any interest to help me get this thing playing I'll make a special trip to get it and post some. It would be nice to resurrect it tho. I'd hate to toss it in the trash.

Thanks!

Greg

JustGreg · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:21 pm Post subject:

Bumping in case Curt didn't get to see this before it dropped off the quick list.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:25 pm Post subject:

Didn't see it.

I can't remember if this is a direct drive unit or not, but Sony liked belt drives. What usually happens is that a bearing can seize up so that the pinch roller can't engage to the capstan. (capstan is the steel shaft that moves the tape with the pinch roller).

Also, if the tape isn't threaded, there may be a microswitch that isn't engaged to start the mechanism.

Post a pix with the cover off. RTRs as you have seen are large and clunky, and really easy to work on if you know a bit about mechanisms and mechanical stuff. other than cleaning controls, the electronics are usually pretty reliable.

Also, check ebay for some old 60s and 70s books on RTR maintenance. Sams was an electronics book publisher and had dozens of DIY and techy hardcover books that will guide you through a lot of it.

If you can't find one, I've got a couple here that I can loan you...but I want them back.. Smile

JustGreg · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:35 pm Post subject:

Awesome! Thanks Curt. I thought about the method of threading and did see a micro switch that was tripped by a pivot arm for each reel. I didn't know whether it should have been threaded to produce a normally open or normally closed state.

It seems that all three motors are direct drive. I'll pick up my camera on the way home tonight and post some pix and today look around for a manual. I think it's been dropped on it's face because while the motor was spinning the dingus the reel slides onto on the left was wobbling up and down and when I hand spun the right one, it turned freely until it hit a certain point (same place every time) and there was resistance. Methinks I got junk as payment for my the fine networking job I did for the guy but I wasn't expecting pay in the first place (a favor for a friend of a friend). Still, I'd kind of like to get it working just to prove I can.

I'll get back to ya on the manuals. Thumbs Up

Greg

JustGreg · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:43 pm Post subject:

Figures....LMFAO. If there's some piece O' sh*t out there to be had, purchased or free, I'll end up with it. The following is from a R2R guy who it seems unofficially reviews R2R's.

Sony TC-580

"DESCRIPTION: I believe this dates from the mid 70's. A fairly deluxe deck, it's unusual in the fact that it's a three motor, three speed design. It is fully bi-directional, and functions as if it had six heads (more on that later). A good looking machine, it anticipated the trend toward today's black equipment by having a black faceplate with walnut sides.

COMMENTS: This one was found in the choir room at First Presbyterian Church in downtown Charleston, West Virginia. I traded a tuning of the pipe organ worth $225.00 for it, which was a mistake. This one is by far the most unreliable tape deck of any sort I've ever encountered. There are many design flaws which make this an unpleasant machine to work with. It uses Sony's "ESP" system, which listens to the right track of both sides of the tape, and when it hears seven seconds of silence in both directions, it trips the reverse. You'd better hope you have a tape that's recorded on both sides, or it'll try to auto reverse after every track! (Of course, you can turn the auto reverse off.) Then there's the auto reversing mechanism itself, which is hideously complicated, and involves moving the pinch roller from one side of the capstan to the other! Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Then there are the electronics. Despite all the fanciness, there's no motion sensing, so woe be unto the person who goes directly from a fast wind mode to play without stopping first. The deck has an emblem which says "Six Head Function"- what this means is that they cheapened the deck by using four heads, and provided monitoring capability by means of complicated and unreliable switching circuits. The playback electronics always sounded lousy, being way too hot (despite their being calibrated and worked on by my trusted technician) and very thin sounding. My opinion: stay clear of this one."

and

Great to look at but miserable to use, the Sony TC-580 rates in my book as one of Sony's rare outright failures.

Crap.

Greg

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 5:51 pm Post subject:

Oh WHATEVER! Like church sound guys know everything! (I've run across almost all of them that claim they do though. <grin> What the hell does 'thin sounding' mean anyways? If the deck had too hot of an output, then the 'tech' didn't know how to calibrate the deck.

I think I've had one of those units here and sold it on eBay, it worked fine. You need to make sure the capstan is spinning and the pinch roller is engaging, or you'll get nothing.

JustGreg · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject:

Woohoo! I managed to get some sound out of the 580. I have some audio issues tho that without a service manual to work with are tripping me up by only having guesswork to work with.

With no RCA inputs connected if I insert just the positive part of RCA plug into the left channel it acts as if I've inserted it all the way and made full neg and pos contact and the sound comes out the right channel perfectly clear and loud...fully inserting it doesn't change anything. The right channel is dead or dying with very very low output.

What I've done so far:

I removed that and tried the same thing with the right RCA plug input. When the positive pecker of the RCA just contacts the female of the RCA input....I get amp hum...loud.

With both R&L RCA's inserted and music on tape playing there's no hum but only the left channel volume sounds as loud as it should. When I pull the left RCA and listen to just the right, the volume is very low.

Additionally, the VU meter for the right channel barely moves and the left is bouncing around up in the high end.
So I'm thinking, and fully expect to be corrected, the problem could be one or more of the following:

1) The forward play head is bad. Reverse play doesn't seem to suffer the same reduced volume as much, but it's still there and the VU meter still doesn't respond right

2) To answer the VU meter movement, it's possible the meter is toasted or somebody cranked the zero screw round and round. Turning it has minimal effect. I know this has nothing to do with audio ouput.

3) The onboard audio (amp?) has issues on that channel. Looking at it I can see it would be a bear to get it out (the audio amp) and still have it in a position to remain connected for live testing. It's all on a tray at the very bottom of the machine.

4) The forward play head isn't adjusted correctly. I did mark the screws and count the turns to move the head in and out in relation to the tape location but no go. I lost the audio on both extremes but never found any real sweet spot that brought both channels in at the same ouput level.

It took me a month of Sundays to go through all the possible threading possibilities but once I got it right the motors started correctly. I actually found the right way by looking at the shiny wear marks on the various rollers and guide pins. I'm still amazed by this thing when you have the tape run over or under a guide incorrectly the tape plays and sound comes out...but it's playing backwards ala Beatles Abby Road. (?).

There are also pots on a board on the side of the machine but I left them alone. I REALLY REALLY wanted to twiddle them just a little...but I resisted. Laughing

I must have worked all the slider switches and gain/vol pots a thousand times. I didn't see any way to remove them from the boards to clean the contacts so settled in watching ESPN and wiggling and turning for an hour. Silly but it worked.

So whatchya think all you R2R aficionados?

BTW...I got to listen to the tapes that were given to me with it. Except for one tape, both sides, filled with Carpenters music Shocked

the rest was alllllll religious "stuff". One small reel...about 4 or 6 inch, was an interview with some little girl whose parents were missionaries. I forget what country this little girl was in but it was somewhere in Africa. Weird and obviously very old.

Thanks for any ideas you might have on the audio thing.

Greg

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:41 am Post subject:

That's the cool thing about many of the reel to reel tapes. You'll find all sort's of gems.

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:12 am Post subject:

Answers in red:

1) The forward play head is bad. Reverse play doesn't seem to suffer the same reduced volume as much, but it's still there and the VU meter still doesn't respond right Check the switch that switches the signals from the head when it goes from forward to reverse. Get some Caig cleaning fluid, www.caig.com. Clean the heads like crazy. One shedding tape can clog heads within 5 minutes.

2) To answer the VU meter movement, it's possible the meter is toasted or somebody cranked the zero screw round and round. Turning it has minimal effect. I know this has nothing to do with audio ouput. [color=darkred]Pull the VU meters and swap them. If it moves at all, it should be OK. [/color]

3) The onboard audio (amp?) has issues on that channel. Looking at it I can see it would be a bear to get it out (the audio amp) and still have it in a position to remain connected for live testing. It's all on a tray at the very bottom of the machine. Possible capacitor problems, but usually dirty trimpots or switches.

4) The forward play head isn't adjusted correctly. I did mark the screws and count the turns to move the head in and out in relation to the tape location but no go. I lost the audio on both extremes but never found any real sweet spot that brought both channels in at the same ouput level. This is where an alignment tape comes in. MRL makes them for about $120 per tape. Check eBay or www.reelprosoundguys.com

It took me a month of Sundays to go through all the possible threading possibilities but once I got it right the motors started correctly. I actually found the right way by looking at the shiny wear marks on the various rollers and guide pins. I'm still amazed by this thing when you have the tape run over or under a guide incorrectly the tape plays and sound comes out...but it's playing backwards ala Beatles Abby Road. (?).

I posted before, I learned at 18 months how to thread my parents reel to reel recorder. It took 2 days of me sitting there, no naps, no eating, and I destroyed all of my parents German folk music tapes, but dammit, I figured it out. I have 8mm film of me at 3 with that reel to reel, maybe one day I'll Youtube it.. if you guys promise not to laugh.

There are also pots on a board on the side of the machine but I left them alone. I REALLY REALLY wanted to twiddle them just a little...but I resisted.

**AnalogRocks** · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:18 am Post subject:

**Curt Palme** · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:22 am Post subject:

THe tape deck was a Pentron with a magic eye. I found one a buncha years ago on eBay, so I HAD to buy it. Alas, it was the version with a VU meter instead of the eye.. Sad

Like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Pentron-Emperor-reel-to-reel-tape-recorder-tape-deck_W0QQitemZ120224552877QQihZ002QQcategoryZ15000QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem